In this episode, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with former Kansas City, Missouri, Mayor Sly James, co-founder of Wickham James Strategies and Solutions. Mayor Sly talks about the importance of mental toughness and recognizing how a good leader responds when their back is against the wall.

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EPISODE 2 - TRANSCRIPT

Fr. Justin Mathews: Well, hello my friends! Welcome back to The Social Leader, Episode Two. Today my guest is the former Mayor Sly James. You're not gonna want to miss this interview. Stay tuned.

Welcome, former Mayor Sly James. Welcome to the program, The Social Leader. How are you this morning?

Former Mayor Sly James: Father Justin, I'm doing just fantastic. How about you?

Fr. Justin: I’m doing awesome. It's a pleasure to get to visit with you again. I want to make sure that everybody knows who you are. I think everybody might know who you are. But I mean, since we're going out into “the Googles” I want to make sure that everybody knows. So Sly, you have worn many, many, many hats over the years now, a couple of them people might not know. You were the lead singer in a band. You were a military police officer. Like Perry Mason, you were a successful trial attorney. And then most recently, you oversaw all of Kansas City, MO's Renaissance as our two term mayor. Did I miss anything in that description?

Sly: Yeah, you did. You missed the time that I served as a body double for Denzel Washington.

Fr. Justin: Right. Was that right after the Marines or was that recently?

Sly: Oh, no, it was some time ago when I actually had a body that could serve as a double for anybody. But now I just have a body that's double what a normal body should be.

Fr. Justin: Well, I'm not gonna go there. Although I do remember when you were mayor, you had some kind of fitness challenge that was going on for a little while there. That was good. You inspired me. You inspired us all.

Sly: That was fun.

Fr. Justin: Well, welcome to The Social Leader. This is our second episode. We're going to talk all about venturing the business, faith and philanthropy for social good. We're going to talk a little bit about mental health, diversity and inclusion, equity, and leadership. Mayor James, these are all things.. and if I may, I'm going to call you Sly, and I'm probably going to screw up and call you Mayor James again too..

Sly: It's fine. I answer to anything.

Fr. Justin: Hopefully Mayor Quinton Lucas will forgive me for doing it wrong. We're going to talk all about those topics. I just want to jump in. A lot of people knew you as mayor, and some of them know what you're doing now. But tell us a little bit about where you are now and what you're working on after the glory of being mayor in Kansas City has now faded. What is the future now for you, Sly?

Sly: Well, thanks a lot. Well, first of all, Wickham James Strategies and Solutions is a consulting firm that I established with my former Chief of Staff, Joanie Wickham, a woman who I have a great deal of respect for. She’s a brilliant thinker, specializes in communications and crisis communications. We have that unique situation of the two parts completing the whole, the things that she does well are things that I'm weak at and the things I do well are things that she's weak at. We're actually carbon copies. She's a young, vibrant white female. I'm an old black dude. And putting the two together, we cover a lot of bases. But our main thrust is very simple. We wanted to continue some of the work that we had been doing while in office and we recognized that one thing that we could offer would be some strategic thinking and some strategic communication. So when we work with clients, we try to help figure out the best way to approach their subject and to actually accomplish their goals. We try to do that through strategically thinking through the process and then by communicating that process with others and by promoting what they want to do in a way that actually addresses the things that they're most interested in.

For example, we work with the Women's Foundation on continuing to spread the Women's Appointments Project which started here in Kansas City while we were in office. So we've gone to other cities and talked to them about that and showed them how they can too start a project that allows more women to get involved in politics and boards and commissions and civic activities, whatever the case may be. We have a client called Sound Diplomacy that's based out of London. And what they do is try to help cities and municipalities build their nighttime economies by elevating music and culture, so it's an economic development study and approach. We have a tech client that sells curbside applications, so we want to talk about what that really means in terms of not just the pragmatism of controlling traffic of scooters and bikes and cars and people, but also what it means from an ecological standpoint and from a governmental efficiency standpoint. So we work through those problems and we do those types of things. And by doing that, we kept variety in our life but we stayed on a very focused path of trying to make sure that we are accomplishing things by thinking strategically and being bold.

Fr. Justin: Now your partner now at Wickham James who was your chief of staff when you were mayor, Joanie, I've met her before, an incredible leader and you all are a dynamic duo. I want to make sure that people get active and check out what you’re up to now. I also want to remind everyone that this program is sponsored by Reconciliation Services. You can find out more about our work here in Kansas City to help reveal the strength of the entire community: rich, poor, black, white, east and west, everybody here, so that all ships rise together.

I wanted to ask you a question a little bit about mental health. Look, I gotta be honest with you. I've talked to a lot of people on both sides of the economic spectrum, both people who are gainfully employed still and working at home with kids all around them or are just dealing with the isolation of this sort of quarantine situation. But I've also talked to a lot of people who are here on the streets, people who have just lost their job, people who don't have anywhere to shelter in place, people who are alone. We have a lot of our older adult volunteers who are in the amazing Foster Grandparents Program at Reconciliation Services really struggling with staying balanced, staying joyful. I remember you and I talking one time in your former office and we talked about mental health and you wrote down on a card two words that to you sort of symbolized what you wanted to say. You wrote down mental toughness. I'd love it if you’d tell me a little bit about mental toughness and how you're applying that right now in your own life to stay mentally sane in really uncertain times?

Sly: Well, mental toughness is something that I think is developing an attitude that regardless of how bad things may feel or how tough they are at the moment that you recognize that if you stay on a path and if you plot out a plan and if you execute your plan, you're going to make it through. And the more times you do that, the tougher you get. You just learn and you feel that regardless of what happens to me, I'm going to be alright. I just have to make it through this hour, this minute, this day, and then we'll take on the next day or the next hour as it comes. And that's something that I learned growing up and certainly in the Marine Corps where they push you beyond where you thought you could go and then all of a sudden you realize you really could get there if you just tried. And the more times that happened, the further and further you could be pushed and you didn't break.

You know, that's a little different I think than mental health. I think it helps me from a health standpoint. But one of the other things that I found too and I think this is kind of a very benign way of describing it, when our son, Kyle, was playing competitive baseball as he was growing up through the early teens and those things that boys do that really test you as they're growing up. And you sit back as a parent sometimes you say, “Man, you know, this is weird. Why is this happening? This kid is different.” And you think that you're the only ones going through it, that you're the only one seeing, the only ones feeling, then you go sit down with a bunch of other parents at a weekend long baseball tournament out of town and you're talking about kids, and you find out everybody's got exactly the same type of problem with a different thing. Now all of a sudden you know that you're not the only ones and that gives you a level of comfort. I think sometimes we get into our own heads too much. And of course, that's totally different than when you have real chemical imbalances or psychological maladies that need to be addressed. But part of mental toughness is recognizing that just because I can do something doesn't mean everybody else can. And we have to fight through those questions and doubts and push ourselves beyond those limits of trying to be empathetic and constructive when we're dealing with people who have real problems. We tend to never want to identify with people who have problems. We don't want to be seen as poor. We don't want to be seen as having mental illness or issues. And therefore we tend to ignore it or deny their existence, or we tend to treat it poorly. So one way or the other mental toughness means being able to deal with the realities and push beyond the expected limits and get things done and get ready for the next challenge. And as a society, we simply haven't done that with mental illness and those types of things. And I think those are things that are absolutely essential if we're going to progress and move forward.

Fr. Justin: Yeah, I mean, I think you've hit on a lot of important topics, but there are many people, both rich and poor, in Kansas City, around the region, and really around the world now in this pandemic, who would agree with what you're saying, but don't know where to begin. I mean, mental toughness as a concept means a lot and it might inspire certain people, but in your own life what are the practical strategies or practical steps, even if they’re simple things that you're doing while you're quarantining, to sort of maintain that mental health and that mental toughness during this time?

Sly: Well, one thing that I think is that you can talk to yourself in or out of anything. If you wake up in the morning, and you're not quite 100%, you can take that not being quite 100% and turn that into a really bad day, just by how you think about it. You know, you wake up grouchy, you start grouchy, you start doing grouchy things, and now at the end of the day, you’ve just been a real pain to be around. Or you can wake up and say, hey, let's do something productive, let’s get something done, and be optimistic, and then you're not that type of a person. So I think the first thing that we all have to do is recognize that we are in control of how we think about things. We can talk ourselves into being mad, we can talk ourselves into being sad, we can talk ourselves into being a pain in the rear, or we can talk ourselves into doing the exact opposite, but it's all in our own head. It's all in the things that we tell ourselves through the course of the day. So the first thing I think that I tried to do is to find some way to be positive and constructive, as opposed to being negative and destructive. Find something that makes you happy. Find something that makes you feel like you've accomplished something during the course of the day, something positive. And I think that sets you on a course for the rest of the day that makes you either nice to be around or not nice to be around and how if you're nice to be around, people are going to be nice to you. If you're not, people aren't necessarily or they're going to stay away. And now you're just feeding whichever narrative you choose. So every day, try to find something that is positive, constructive, and it leaves you with a sense of accomplishment at the end of the day, rather than wishing at the end of the day that you “had of.” There's no sense of wishing you “had of,” “had of” has come and gone and all you can do is get ready for tomorrow.

Fr. Justin: Yeah, you remind me of a book that I really liked that's titled Our Thoughts Determine Our Life, and that idea of what we're thinking about every day determining our actions, a lot of times we get that backwards. We think if “I can only do the right thing, then I'm going to feel the right way on the inside, then I'm going to start thinking the right way.” But actually, as leaders, particularly, but really for all of us, it's our thoughts that begin to determine our lives. I know at Reconciliation Services one of the things that we really try to impart to our neighbors and to our clients who come in for services is this idea of self image and how you think about yourself. All of those narratives that are out there about who you are, are really somebody else's thought. And so developing that idea, revealing your own strength of who you are, is really critical. And I appreciate you bringing that out with regard to mental toughness.

The other thing that you make me think about right now, really relates to the idea of diversity and inclusion and particularly in this time, right now you're hearing all over the news, and hopefully we're raising a national consciousness about this yet again, that there are huge inequities, huge disparities in health and in income. I mean, this was a crisis before we ended up in a pandemic. And it feels like every time we reach whether it's Hurricane Katrina, or this pandemic, we get people coming on and saying, there are these health disparities in the African American community and in the poor community, and these things are highlighted right now. You know, the premise of this show, The Social Leader, is that we've got to begin to shift and actualize our thinking into action once we get the right thinking. So what opportunities, Sly, do you think that this situation presents for us as leaders? Maybe for businesses? What does this situation present to us and what opportunities are there to pivot so that we can solve some of these gaps and deal with these diversity and equity issues that are highlighted right now?

Sly: Wow, that's an interesting question, and let me start by telling you that I learned a lesson when I was younger back when I entered the Marine Corps. Coming from Missouri, Kansas City, like I did, never had been on a plane before, certainly not having done anything like this before. And then landing in a large group of people from around the country that I didn’t know, that were different colors, different beliefs, different regions, different accents, different beliefs, etc. and having to get along with them. And the one thing that I think made all of that possible was a recognition that we were not in competition with each other because we had to act as a cohesive unit. And when we were there during the Vietnam era, it wasn't a matter of not liking somebody because of their religion or their race. It was really a matter of learning to trust somebody because they would cover your back in a firefight and perhaps keep you alive. So when you reduce things down to a much more essential set of characteristics like life, death, survival, all of a sudden all the other differences don't mean anything. And I think right now we're going through the situation where a lot of us are being reduced to that same element of survival, what do we have to do to make sure that we don't get sick, we don't wind up in the hospital, that our family doesn't wind up in bad ways like that as well, and survive. Now all of a sudden, you start looking around and you've seen all the other people who are in the same situation, and you feel a certain kinship with them as opposed to a level of competition. So now we recognize what's always been true. And what's always been true is every one of those inequities that you mentioned have been around for decades, hundreds of years, they have not changed. They've gotten more subtle, but they're not gone. And and now we recognize that because we're talking about issues of life, and health, and major subjects, that there are inequities when you hear the statistics and that the huge majority of outrageous differences in the death rate of African Americans and brown people versus white folks as a result of this virus, then that crystallizes something that's been there a long time. The health equities have been like that a long time. Maternal fetal health in the African American community is much lower than it is in the majority community and it's been like that a long time. So none of this stuff is new. What we're seeing is we have less clutter to stop us from being able to see it.

Now,what are we going to do about it? You know, here's my concern and I try to be positive and optimistic. I don't think we're going to do much about it because I don't think we have the leadership to actually be able to galvanize the country and move it. What I fear will happen is that there will be a vaccine and then people will get back to what things were. And then we'll all wind up back in our same corners with our dukes up ready to fight the same silly fights because our leadership will move on to something that's not important. We've had ample opportunities to cure poverty, to do something about healthcare, to do something about inequities in education and we haven't taken them. We've been through World Wars, we've been through all sorts of conflicts, we've been through other illnesses, it has not changed. And one of the main reasons why it hasn't changed is that we have not developed leadership to make a change. Our leadership is much more interested in pushing an ideology on one side of the line or the other, rather than solving problems. And if you don't recognize this as a problem, you're not going to develop a mechanism to do it. Further, when you have term limits and things like that on the federal level. There's no incentive to take on a challenge that could last for 15-20 years to make a dent in when you've only got eight years to spend. So rather than do that, the first four years you're going to do stuff that's going to be designed to get you elected for the next four years. Those are short term things, they're really not controversial. They usually make people feel good or try to put more money in people's pockets. They don't solve the problems of inequities most of the time. And even if you do make that effort, then when the change of administration comes, they abandon it because you did it and they don't want to be associated with what you did. They want the public to be associated with what they're doing. So until we change our leadership styles and approaches in our politics, I have to tell you, I only see incremental change, like it's constantly going. I think there has to be something that inspires people to put aside all of the nonsense that we're filled with, all of the political idolism that we constantly pay homage to, the Fox versus MSNBC mentality, one way or the other, and if you listen to one, you can't possibly listen to the other, and you can't possibly agree with the other side. All of those things are absolute prescriptions for failure when it comes to addressing the real issues of poverty, racial inequities, gender inequities, educational inequities, etc.

The last thing I'll say about it is, is that if we are truly wanting to do something long term about some of these problems, then we should have been starting when every child was born, frankly, educating the parents of the child before they were born. We should have been working to make sure that we were developing minds at the early stage. When we talk about a child having 85% of their mind developed by the age of three, then we do nothing for most of those kids, especially ones in poverty. The first time that they're touched in terms of serious learning is when they show up at kindergarten at the age of five. And kids born in poverty are 30 million words behind at the age of three. And by the time they reach kindergarten at the age of five, they're already two years behind. Now, how do you build a society where you've got an entire segment of your population that starts off at the age of five, two years behind their peers, with no vehicles, no mechanisms, no real opportunities for them to catch up in a serious way? So I like to look at things as they are and I like to focus people on one very basic thing. If we are serious about wanting to change these inequities, recognize it ain't gonna happen overnight. It may be so subtle in some ways, you won't even see it. But if we're serious about it, the first thing that we'll do is we'll invest in the foundation of our children across the board, so that they have opportunities to overcome these things and to compete on an economic level without fear and to also engage other kids with different ways at an earliest age and learn conflict resolution, learn that there's really no difference between kids. Most kids can play together different races, different sexes, they won't care until the adults start telling them to.

Fr. Justin: I want to push you a little bit to apply what you're talking about, about the systemic change, to the individual. You've moved the needle in Kansas City during your two terms on trying to get pre-K education, your leadership youth academy that you put together, the reading room that you put together, and really a lot of those things and a lot of the consciousness that you raised about those issues, along with a lot of other experts in the region and the nation, I think were some of your greatest legacies. And that chapter is still being written. But here's the thing that I want to really drill into and get your advice on: a lot of people who are middle managers, who are stay at home parents, or who are hiring managers on the frontlines of the construction companies building the air airport or the law firms, those are the folks that really shape culture. Aren't they? The people who are doing the hiring, not the folks only at the top, who are setting the priorities about diversity, equity inclusion in these disparities and addressing them. What can those individuals do? What can we do in our own lives? If you were to name three things, what can we do to make systemic change in our sphere of influence with regard to these disparities around health, inequity, racism and income inequity? If you had three things, and you could teach us what would they be?

Sly: Well, the first would be that you have to include yourself into groups that you're not comfortable with. Whenever I went out to speak, I would find myself speaking to a monochromatic group more times than not. I would ask those folks there to look around, tell me who's not there, and by telling me who when they figure out who's not there, tell me why they're not there, and then tell me what you plan to do about it. I think first of all, we all have to be willing to speak up in those circumstances and point that out because a lot of times I don't think people are doing things maliciously, I think they're doing it unconsciously. Systemic racism does not mean that everybody is sitting around plotting danger and stuff for people who are not like them. Systemic racism means that some of these things have become so embedded in our ordinary day-in life, we don't even know that it's racist. So first of all, you have to point it out to somebody. We should never allow a situation where things like that are existing to go unchallenged. Bringing it up, letting somebody know, sometimes it's hard to do that and uncomfortable, and sometimes you have to be diplomatic, but we should not let that go.

Second, we have to be willing to step out of our comfort zones and go into other places and make ourselves vulnerable and educate people about what's going on. So I've always thought that it's easy for us to think that we've accomplished something when we work in a place and there's a couple of people of the opposite sex, opposite race, or something. And we can say, ”yeah, I know some people like...” as opposed to saying, “yeah, we have dinner together there at our house” or “yeah, our kids play together.” So you've got to work outside of the normal work environment if we're going to make societal change, then we have to make society change, which means we have to work towards ending housing segregation and those types of things.

The last thing I would simply say is, is to educate ourselves. There are plenty of opportunities for us to actually learn about other people. We simply don't always want to get up and do it. There's a lot of history that has been written in this country that simply avoids the major truths of the history of this country. The stories are out there and the reality and the facts are out there. So we have to educate ourselves. So educate, get involved in those other things, and participate in things that are multiracial, but also we have to serve. We must serve on some level, whether in whatever way it's a mentor, volunteer at a school, some sort of service for people other than like us or people who need our help just as we will need somebody else's help. If we do those things and learn and serve, it’s really hard to be stoic about inequities when you see those inequities up close, and maybe even have some of those inequities visited on you, then all of a sudden, you become a missionary to change it. So those are the things that I can think of off the top of my head.

Fr. Justin: Yeah, you've given us really three good things. Number one: I love the idea of ask who's not in the room, who is not there, and then be willing to speak up about it because a lot of times I think we sit back and we figure out, you know, this room doesn't look like there are the right people in the room to actually give voice to the real issue that I'm thinking about. But then we don't speak up about it. The second thing you said is step outside of your comfort zone. You used a word in there that I love, this idea of vulnerability. And you talked about changing society is somehow linked to vulnerability. I like to think about it as the vulnerability virtue within leadership. And then the third thing that you said was educate yourself and get involved. Once you're passionate about something, once you know something, do something. So those three things are really practical. And I think we can all take those away. I wrote them down for myself, and I'm gonna put them on that sticky note and say that Sly said I better be asking who's not there and speaking up second, stepping out and being vulnerable, and then educating myself and getting active and I think those are really important. Tell me about a time when you, as a leader, really moved to the place of passion. I believe that great leaders have the passion to lead, not just the ability. I certainly remember one of the first times that I was with you in a room. We were at our very first event for Reconciliation Services. You weren't on the bill, but you were in the room, and I remember you got up and you took that mic and you said, “okay, everybody, we're gonna raise some money now for Reconciliation Services because these are issues that I'm passionate about”. You never shied away from talking about the inequity at the same time that you were talking about the economy, at the same time that you were talking about pre-K education, transportation, and I loved that about you. You were polished, but at the same time you also were willing to speak out and be vulnerable. Tell me about where your passion as a social leader comes from. Where does that come from? Is there a story? Is there a time when you realize that I have a passion for this kind of leadership?

Sly: Well, it's hard to pinpoint. I can tell you that I picked up a lot of what I think are really good habits from my father and my mother. They were very passionate about education. It was huge. They saw education as the way out for black folks who were trying to escape poverty. So they made huge sacrifices for us to do that. I think that my time in the Marine Corps taught me about leadership in a different way. It taught me how we're all tied together, how in the Marine Corps if you're not moving as a unit, then you're not moving. And if you're not moving, then that means that you're in danger. So they really forced us to think and work as a unit, why it is beneficial for us all to A) recognize our roles, B) carry out those roles, and C) understand that if we don't carry out our roles, then the rest of the team is in danger. So I learned about that. And then when I got out of the Marine Corps, I went to College at Rockhurst and I was a little older. I found plenty of opportunities to talk to some of the younger guys that I was with about things and they seem to be fascinated by the fact that I'd done some things that they have not yet done. And that somehow that was interesting to them so that gave me an opportunity. I think that I just come by my desire and passion. Rockhurst University was big at that. They really advocated service. It wasn't like they required you to go out and get service hours, like in high school, but what they talked about was being of service to humanity and to other people. And it stuck with me.

I've always thought that we're all very much connected, and we are only as strong as the weakest. But there was another episode that occurred early on in my tenure, I was elected in 2011. In June of 2011, I was in Baltimore from my first US Conference of Mayors and I ran into a guy, Ralph Smith, there who was with the Grade Level Reading group and Annie E. Casey Foundation and he came up and he started talking to me and other mayors about how important it was for the life of a child to be able to read proficiently at third grade. Because up to third grade you're learning to read, and from third grade on you're reading to learn and if you haven't learned to read well, obviously you're not learning much. And the case he made was so strong and so compelling, that as soon as I got back to Kansas City, we started setting up Turn The Page. I believe very strongly in the future, but I also believe very strongly that we're not doing a very good job preparing our children to face the future. Whereas after World War Two, the United States was number one in post-secondary degrees and certificates, we’ve slipped into the mid 20’s now. We used to be at a much higher level in terms of our learning and our capacity and now we've gotten complacent. We talk a lot about American exceptionalism, but we're really not as exceptional as a lot of times we'd like to think we are. Somehow or another that slipped into the lexicon and it's become a badge of honor. We are finding out over the term of years here that we have the same types of flaws as other people and some of those other folks and nations have done a better job of addressing them than we have. So I have this passion for making sure that, as because I know what it’s like to be discriminated against, I know what it's like to be on the wrong side of the tracks, that we eliminate the tracks and the discrimination. I think that there's a lot of different ways to do that. Mine happens to be through making sure that every child- black, white, yellow, whatever - from every socio-economic group has equal opportunity to all the educational resources that we can muster, so that they can all compete and gain on their own skills, as opposed to what we're currently doing. So I don't know where the passion came from. I'm just really glad that it's here.

Fr. Justin: Yeah, and so are we. We're really thankful for the passion that you've brought to leadership and that you continue to bring. As we begin to kind of wrap up our time, I want to ask you an overarching leadership question, because I think a lot of people listening to you might have a similar passion about education or pre-K or reading or Turn The Page kind of work, but they might not think that they have any influence on that whatsoever. And I think that's because, again, going back to fixing our thinking and going back to the thoughts we have determining our lives, a lot of the way that we think about leadership and strategy was formed in kind of the 1950’s IBM mode of leadership. But I think we have an opportunity now to really re-envision leadership and affect more change if we become social leaders. You're in the business of strategy and leadership now at Wickham James Strategy. So how do you think this crisis, this COVID pandemic, is going to affect the way that we all think about leadership and strategy? Or how should it be changing the way that we think about leadership and strategy?

Sly: Well, I think it’s already changing. And here's one way that I think it's gonna be very interesting to find out and to examine when we come out of this current lockdown type situation is who are the business owners and the leaders who came up with viable programs to help the people that they were responsible for, either in the business or in the organization, whatever it is. Who spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best way to solve this problem for the people that they were responsible for? And I think that's going to show something. It's forcing people to lead on something other than their area of expertise. It's forcing people to look at the social aspects of leadership, not just the business aspects of leadership. That's one thing. The other thing that I think is going to happen here is that those who come out of this whole thing with an idea and a plan for “you know what? we used to do it like that, but now that we've been through this and I've had a chance to think about it, we need to make a pivot and do it like this, and here's why.” And to do that in a way that is going to provide not just business or economic benefit, but social leadership, a social benefit. For example, here’s one thing that I think could help. Think about all the people who lose their jobs, have not been there long enough to invest in their retirement programs, but now don't have those jobs and cannot invest in those retirement programs and have to start all over again, if there's one at all, and then have nothing at the end. So there needs to be a system of portable benefits so that people can build their own wealth. And regardless of where they are, they can take that with them. That would spur more entrepreneurship, that would spur more startup type businesses, because then they wouldn't be tied by golden handcuffs to a company who could offer them benefits. I think there's all sorts of things that can come out of this. But we have to first of all, recognize where we are, what the issues and the problems are. Second, analyze those problems and what they are. And third, we have to actualize a plan to resolve those problems. If we go through those three steps, it will be fine.

Fr. Justin: Yeah, I mean, sounds like what you're talking about is that social leaders are people who are trying to reinvent leadership to include not only the ROI, but the SROI, the social return on investment, that they need to be really anticipating the changes that are coming about business, entrepreneurship and leadership. How do we do that? What are the steps to actually become a social leader who anticipates the change and then has the ability to apply that to a greater framework?

Sly: Well, you know, that's really interesting, because I think there's models and matrix out there. There are more and more of what are known as b-corps, benefit corporations, corporations who have now made a conscious decision and effort, and allocate a percentage of what they earned to a social program. They pick their one, but because they're picking it and donating and contributing, not only their money but their people to it, now we have a different kind of activism on the ground level from organizations that you normally wouldn't have There are more and more of those, those matrix, those organizations are out there. Join one. Call one. Read about one. Incorporate their ideas. It's out there, you don't have to reinvent the wheel to do good. You just have to have the desire to do good. And if you want to do good, you can do your research, you can find the answers, and you can create your own plan to do it. It's just that simple. But the first thing is you have to be willing to make the change and have a reason to do it. This whole situation should give us reasons to do it, if we want to recognize those reasons. If we just want to get so wrapped up in how terrible it is, and whoa is me, then you're not going to recognize it, then it's going to go back and you're just going to do the same old stuff. We have to recognize that not only is this a problem, this is an opportunity for us to correct mistakes and if we don't take this opportunity to correct mistakes, then we're not leaders, we're just basically followers. And there's nothing wrong with being a follower, but don't brand yourself or try to brand yourself a leader if you're not. If you're not going to lead, get out of the way and let somebody else do it.

Fr. Justin: Going right back to that idea that you learned from the Marines about keep moving. If you're not moving, you're not going to make it. So thank you so much, Sly, for joining us today. Thank you for the wisdom that you dropped here for us and bringing your experience. Is there anything that you want to leave folks with today? Anything that you didn't get to say that you were hoping to say today?

Sly: Yeah, the only thing that I'll say is that when you think about these types of issues and the circumstances that we're in and what's going on, if you don't understand now the importance of actually picking good leaders and doing the things necessary to ensure good leadership, then you never will. Because right now it's easy to find people who look good on TV and say all the right stuff when things are going well. That's not the test of a leader. The test of a leader is how do they respond when the chips are down and people's backs are up against the wall. Do you want to follow them? If they tell you that if we go this way we can get out of this, are you jumping in behind them? Or are you saying, “wait a minute, I'm not so sure about that?” If that's the case, get somebody else. We need to be more particular about our leaders. And we have to learn that if we want to pick the right people, we can't rely on television commercials and makeup and nice sound bites. We have to do some homework and spadework and we have to demand that they be accountable for what happens.

Fr. Justin: Well, you heard it. Former mayor Sly James laid down the gauntlet on leadership, picking the right leaders, but also becoming that good social leader that we need. So, Sly, thank you so much for the honor of joining me here today. I hope we get to have you back as we come out of this pandemic and we’ll see what you’ve learned and how things have changed and how leadership has changed in your mind as we go through this. Thank you again so much.

Sly: Father, all I can tell you is that I appreciate everything you do and have done. I very much respect the service that you provide to the community, the faithful way that you attend to those who need your attendance, that’s a great thing. I will always be available to you, just let me know.
Fr. Justin: You are the best. Thank you so much. I wanted to remind everyone that this show, The Social Leader, is sponsored by Reconciliation Services. The work that we’re doing to reveal the strength of the community, to transform Troost Avenue and really every dividing line in our country, from a dividing line to a gathering place. If you are particularly interested in learning more about how to become a social leader, learning more about what social leadership is, make sure that you go to TheSocialLeader.org. You can learn about the soon-to-come social leader program that Reconciliation Services is launching. Once again, I want to thank you for joining us, thank our guest, former mayor Sly James, the rock star, the trial attorney, and now the head co-founder of Wickham James. Make sure to check them out as well. That’s it for episode two of The Social Leader. I hope you’ll join us again. My guest will be Dr. Curran from Children’s Mercy Hospital. Thank you again so much.