In this episode of The Social Leader podcast, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Terry Bassham, CEO of Evergy energy company. They discuss how Terry's personal life informs his values as CEO, the importance of seeing the community reflected in the company, how puting people first is good for business, and the need for Social Leaders to admit when they are wrong and to not be afraid to change.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Rev. Adam Hamilton, founding and Senior Pastor at the The Church of the Resurrection in Leawood, KS, with campuses across the KC metro and a membership of 20k+. Alongside a diverse group of volunteer leaders and staff, Church of the Resurrection just released their Vision for Racial Justice, a courageous stance in the midst of turbulent times. In this timely and hard-hitting conversation, Fr. Justin and Adam discuss the role of people of faith in racial reconciliation, the art of communication for social progress, addressing the corporate and original sin of racism in the U.S., how to live unafraid, the change of mind, heart, and action needed to be a social leader, and operationalizing "wokeness." This episode is a must watch, particularly for white people who are struggling to discern their role in our current moment.
EPISODE 15 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Well, hello everybody! Welcome to The Social Leader podcast, episode number 15. Our goal is to help you learn to lead with greater social impact. I'm Father Justin Mathews and real quick before we begin today's episode, I want to let you know that this podcast is presented by Reconciliation Services, a nonprofit social venture in Kansas City, working to cultivate a community seeking racial and economic reconciliation to reveal the strength of all. You can find out more about Reconciliation Services programs and even support our work at rs3101.org. Now to today's show.
Welcome today to the podcast. My guest today is Pastor Adam Hamilton. Adam is the Senior Pastor of the United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in Leawood, Kansas, where he preaches to more than 8,000+ people a week. Adam writes and teaches from his faith tradition and his experience on life's tough questions, the doubts with which we all wrestle, and the challenging issues that we face today, Pastor Adam, it's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
Pastor Adam Hamilton: Father Justin, it’s great to be with you today. Thank you so much.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. And as we began, I love when people find out more about our guests. You can visit Church of the Resurrection’s website if you want to find out more. Well, Adam, I really appreciate the time that you're making, especially right now. And I really want to dive in because we only have a limited amount of time and you have so many things that I know that you've been thinking about and preaching about and that your church has been active in. But let's start with an inconvenient truth or a difficult truth. I'm a Christian pastor, I'm a priest, and I have to admit the Christian faith has not always been on the right side of race issues and many other issues. So I want to begin there. Can you level-set us? What should be the role of the church in advocating for human dignity and civil rights and other issues, Adam?
Pastor Hamilton: Sure. Well, at the very least for people of faith, and really people who have no faith, we should be people who are speaking up, standing up for those who can't speak up for themselves, but not only for those who can't speak up for themselves. We are people who believe that everyone is created in the image of God. And so if we were created an image of God, then we need to be speaking for human dignity. We need to be speaking for justice for everyone. Racial justice, social justice. That's what we should be known for. Not the opposite. Unfortunately, the church, it’s both. It should be both a progressive and an organization that's moving towards justice, but at the same time, we tend to be a conserving organization. And so we're conserving truths. We hold on to theological truths, ideas that we think are important that we're hesitant to change and so that's really important as well. Unfortunately, in our society when it comes to social justice, social issues, we tend to be more conserving of the status quo and we find it troubling to move away from it. One of my leaders said this week, we were talking about the challenges of people being upset by our focus on racial justice and they said, “people come to church wanting to be comforted, they want to be encouraged, they want to feel better,” and sometimes when we talk about things that that need to change, there are things need to change in us. Repentance is about seeing the world differently, seeing something differently, having a change of mind, which leads to a change of heart, which leads to a change in behavior. And that sometimes means that we have to deal with truths we don't really want to hear. It's hard sometimes. I was in a conversation recently with a group of pastors and they were just being honest how hard it is to preach into issues of racial justice. Like everybody agrees racism is bad, it's just that most people don't see racism, their own racial biases, their unseen biases. And so when we start talking about those things, we start talking about these larger movements in our society, they upset people. And so there’s folks like “I can't afford to lose any more members, I'm not sure how to talk about this in a way that's going to help people here.” And often we jump in because especially those who feel passionate about this, we jump in a way that instead of bringing people along on the journey actually pushes them away. If they're not quite where we are, then they feel alienated by what we said, and judged or like we're trying to lay a heavy guilt trip on them as opposed to finding a way to talk to them that causes them to go, “oh, yeah, I see that, I didn't see that before.” And so we struggle with that. I tell people when it comes to prophetic preaching, it's easy to poke people in the eye and offend them. It's harder to actually speak in a way that influences them and sees them repent and change. And that requires a different level of tact than just blasting people with what you believe is your truth at the time.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you make a great point that oftentimes when we talk about a truth, particularly if you're coming from a faith tradition, it's actually a lot easier to just sort of lay aside somebody else's beliefs, shut your ears to what they're saying, and just say, “well, let me tell you what truth is.” And when it comes to something that is so ingrained within, first of all, the human heart. Structural racism, racism, these kinds of things are not just issues within our politics or within the formation of our country, but they go even deeper than that. As I think you and I would agree, these are issues of human sin. This is the dark slimy underbelly of humanity that as Christians, we believe that God came to save us from and I think that the church, when we've been timid, when we haven't been willing to really live that sacrificial crucified belief system, when we haven't embraced that, we've shied away from really speaking to the injustice, the indignity, and the need for the church to actually proclaim what it believes. And we have a lot of different people, Adam, who listen to this podcast from all different traditions. And of course, I'm speaking from my tradition as an Orthodox Christian priest. But I was impressed by the fact that your church just released, I think on June 18, a statement entitled A Vision For Racial Justice. And if I can grab an excerpt from that, in that statement, you wrote: “We believe that all lives can't matter until all Black Lives Matter. As followers of Jesus Christ, we must condemn racism in every form, whether unconscious or conscious, systemic or arbitrary.” And then you went on to say this important point: “Racism is sin, and it is antithetical to the gospel.” That's a powerful statement that doesn't leave any room for that gray in between, thankfully. Tell me more about how you and your leadership team and your faithful have handled race and faith at Church of the Resurrection, especially in light of the recent protests and the murders and the news that we see today.
Pastor Hamilton: We started when we started the church 30 years ago, this was one of the things that was important to us to be able to say. We look at Kansas City, we are one of the most racially divided cities in America, and racism is a sin and we have a lot of history. There's a lot of structural racism sort of baked into the system. So I grew up here in Kansas City. The Troost dividing line where Thelma's Kitchen is located, where Reconciliation Services is located, as we know, is a major dividing line in our city for a very long period of time. So for 30 years, we've been saying, “okay, we want to be a part of tearing down that wall, we want to build bridges, we want to be a part of addressing the issues of race in our city and helping our city look more like the kingdom of God.” Figuring out how to do that is another question. So we've had task forces, study teams. We spent a lot of time listening, trying to read, study, understand. We've aimed at this a lot, in a lot of different ways. And one of the things most recently, the last three or four years, Emanuel Cleaver III who's pastor at St. James United Methodist Church, our two churches came together to create what's called Allies for Racial Justice. We've been looking at leadership teams working together, trying to get our people in relationship, all of that aimed at addressing race and racism. So every year there's sermons where I'm preaching into this. When George Floyd died, I had spoken out through my e-note when Ahmaud Arbery died and addressed that. I was in the middle of the sermon series and I thought, ‘okay, I'll address it in my e-note’ We prayed into it that weekend, but I didn't stop to preach about that. And I thought, ‘okay, that's just the deep south, this isn’t everywhere.’ Of course I know it's everywhere. Then the next thing is Travis Miller in Edmond, Oklahoma. His JB Hunt truck is blocked in by the HOA President in a gated neighborhood that looks an awful lot like south Johnson County. You watch 37 minutes of it and you see the guy crying at the end. It's like ‘yeah, this is just horrible.’ And then Christian Cooper in New York City, Central Park, the guy’s watching birds. And you're watching this stuff and you're going ‘yeah, no, this isn't just in the south, we still have problems.’ Then George Floyd becomes the climax of that to go ‘Okay, you got to say something, you got to do something.’ And so anyway, as that happened, then we stopped everything else we were doing and spent three weeks focused on what Jim Wallace calls America's Original Sin of Racism. And again, part of what I'm trying to figure out as a pastor, with the Coronavirus, we got people joining us on television, we're now on TV and we had like 30,000-40,000 people a weekend who were worshiping with us and so I'm trying to figure out I don't even know those people, how do I speak to them? And they started joining us because they're looking for hope, but I'm going to shift gears really fast and we're going to talk about something that's gonna be harder. And I told some of my team I said, “okay, the moment we step into this you're gonna watch those numbers drop, they're gonna drop because these are harder things to say and talk about.” Right after George Floyd’s death, my sermon was A Dream Still Deferred, and we jumped into understanding bias in ourselves and we all have biases. When bias relates to race, we call it racism. And there are lessons we learned and things we picked up when we were growing up that feed into this and we don't even understand it. We don't even think we have them. I wrote a book a year ago on fear called Unafraid. And those fears that we have, our amygdala, our body’s designed to recognize and anticipate and to imagine possible threats to our lives and we catastrophize those things. And some of our information, the data inputs that we have, have to do with what we watch on the news, it's the things we were taught when we were children. All of this stuff goes into deciding what's a possible threat and so much of racism and bias has to do with our fears and our fear of the other and how we're thinking about other people as a possible threat. Somebody who's different from me, they're a different religion, or they are a different race, or they live in a different place, or different socioeconomically. And we have to unlearn some of those things that we learned. We didn't even realize we were learning along the way. And that's part of what we're talking about the first week. The second week I thought ‘I'm going to skip vacation and I'm just going to preach on this this week.’ And then we had the protests and the President announced we were going to have American troops combating the protesters, Americans. I'm like, ‘I’m going to postpone another week's vacation because we got to talk about this.’ I went down on the plaza on Tuesday and Wednesday that week or Wednesday and Thursday that week to walk with people and to listen and to hear stories and to be able to say “this is not okay.” And so we focused on that. And then we had Emanuel Cleaver preach because after the first two weeks, I had African Americans speak at both of those sermons but I thought, I think we actually need to hear from an African American pastor. And so I asked Emanuel, who's our partner in Allies for Racial Justice, to speak. And then during that whole period of time, we're working on the statement and it started with our staff, our lead staff to our staff, and then we thought we need to speak not just to our staff, and so we got our church council involved. And there was a team of about 10 people in our church, five laity and five staff, half were people of color, working on this statement, and kind of perfected it and finally came out. So that came out last Friday and I'll just tell you, that has created no small amount of restoration for some people and created more conversations, in some cases, anger on the part of some people as well.
Fr. Justin: Well, we're gonna link to that in the show notes, but I'm going to pull it up right here and just take a look. First of all, you said some powerful things. The group came together and talked about both systemic and arbitrary racism. You called racism a sin, but you also use words like privilege, that set people off. You talked about repentance, that sets people off. You've got a lot of things in here that are really strong statements, and they're needed. They're statements that I've spent a lot of time personally working on those things and understanding them. Some of them are academic statements. Some of them are emotional, religious, or moral statements. But I would imagine that your reaction that you got from the congregation or from the community at large was pretty mixed. Let's talk about those people, though, who didn't receive it well. Those who are already in the choir, you're singing to the choir, and they're glad to see us put something strong out that they can stand on. But let's talk about those members of the congregation or of the community who've reached out to you and had trouble with it. What was their reaction? How did you handle that?
Pastor Hamilton: Well, it's a wide array of reactions, but I’ll just mention several of these. One is, for some people Black Lives Matter has to do with a particular organization. And so when they look at that organization, they may see things on there that they disagree with or that they think are too radical or too whatever. And for me, Black Lives Matter isn't about an organization. I don't know enough about the Black Lives Matter organization to say or want to say I agree with everything they've said. Black Lives Matter is just a fundamental philosophy and statement that I think is important. Somebody wrote to me and said, “I want to go to a church where all lives matter,” and I'm like, “wait, do you really think we're saying all lives don't matter? Of course, all lives matter. But in the midst of that, we're just talking Christians, the Scripture says if one part of the body suffers, we all suffer, we come alongside them.” I was thinking about a couple of years ago with the protests in the south, in West Virginia, about the Jewish community and blood and land and we will not be replaced or whatever the statements were that these white nationalists were saying and we organized events to support the Jewish community. And after shootings in the synagogues, what we needed to say then was “Jewish Lives Matter.” And when a mosque in our community was defaced a few years ago, we needed to say “Muslim Lives Matter.” And when immigrants were being characterized in certain ways we needed “Immigrant Lives Matter.” And at this point, we all know this on this podcast I'm suspecting, but part of the reason why we have to say “Black Lives Matter” is because right now a lot of Black people don't feel like their lives matter as much as white people's lives and there's an important role to say. So making that statement, but for some people, it was, “wait, you're supporting this particular movement, but that particular organization also speaks a lot about voting out certain people in office and voting in other people.” So now it sounds like it's a Democratic thing. That it's somebody supporting the Democratic Party. I'm a pastor of a church, 49% Republican, 26% Democrat, and 25% Independent. It's an interesting group of people. So if they feel like, “Well, wait, we're linking Resurrection to a particular group that's supporting a particular political party.” And it's like, “No, that's not what we're trying to say.” This phrase and this idea, I don't know how you can disagree with this idea that Black Lives Matter. And of course, all lives matter, but when one group is made to feel like their lives don't matter, we have to speak to them. And so anyway, a friend of mine said something I thought was interesting. Maybe he got it from somewhere else, I'm not sure, but his sister has breast cancer. And he said to somebody who would challenge, he said, “I think cancer research is important in every area, but my sister has breast cancer. And right now, I'm supporting breast cancer. I'm supporting breast cancer awareness, because right now my sister’s sick and I need to be involved in that.” And I think there he said in the same way I think Black Lives Matter is important. We're saying these are folks who have been hurt, and they're experiencing pain, and right now, we need to make clear that all lives matter, but this particular group needs to know, we need to know and we need to say that Black Lives Matter to us. And so anyway, that was one piece of it, but there were others too. When you talk about white privilege, and if some of your listeners have read White Fragility and if you're doing training and your diversity training and inclusivity training, a lot of these things, these terms, can be helpful for some people and off putting for other people. So what I hear from folks is, “wait, I don't have any privilege.” Especially folks who grew up in relative poverty. “I grew up in poverty. I had to work my way. I paid for my own college. I worked my way through and I think everybody has that opportunity.” And my family lived in poverty for a period of time when I was in high school, and my step dad left, we had nothing. Literally, our home was taken away. We're brushing our teeth with water out of the back of the toilet at one point. And so, part of what I've said is, look, if you take me who was experiencing some level of poverty at that point, and you take somebody who's experiencing poverty east of Troost, who is African American, and we might both have experienced some measure of poverty, but I will tell you, I started out with advantages that I didn't even understand. And part of that's because at 87% of the population or 85% or 82% today, they have a skin color that looks like mine. And that makes a difference. And the way I was acculturated and the way the culture is set up, it all makes a difference. It gives me advantages that other folks have not had and I have to be able to understand that. That there's some people at a disadvantage. And I don't regret the fact that I have those, that I had parents who read to me, and I had economic benefits that other people didn't have. I just have to recognize not everybody started from the same starting point in that. And so I think that's important too. But those are some of the kind of things. Repentance, I had one man who spent his whole life, he's worked for social, racial justice. And he says, “I worked really hard at this, I really believe this. Why? Why would you say I have to repent? What do I have to repent of?” And I said, “well, repenting is literally, the metanoia in Greek, it is to have a change of mind that leads to a change of heart that leads to change in behavior.” And I said, “so, do you believe there's racism?” “Of course, there's racism, I've worked against it my whole life.” I said, “have you done as much as you think you could have?” “Well, yeah, yeah, maybe not.” And I said, “for me, I've been silent too many times. I've tried to speak up, but there are many times I was silent because I didn't want to have to deal with the emails I get and the people leaving the church, and people mad and so I just was kind of quiet. I was a little more quiet than I should have been. I repent of that. I repeated the fact that I have fears, innate fears, that I have to work against.” Those are the things that we were hearing.
Fr. Justin: Well, I appreciate you bringing all of that up. And I think there are a lot of leaders who are listening who want to take action, they want to move beyond silence. They want to learn, they want to repent, but it's very difficult. And sometimes people have told me that they just don't know where to begin. And I think 98% of the people in the world are of goodwill, they want to do right. And very often though, they just don't have a starting point. And they need someone to guide them. But they actually need to do the hard work themselves of listening to the lived experience of others and beginning to unpack their own issues. And that's really hard to do. And you started to share just a little bit about your story growing up, but I'd like to just learn a little more. What can you share from this experience or how you've grown in your role as a leader, how did you unpack racism and implicit bias in your own life? How are you continuing to do that?
Pastor Hamilton: Well, I grew up in Johnson County and went to Prairie Elementary school. I don't think there was an African American teacher or student at the school when I was there. So, what I learned, I learned on TV. And in Johnson County, there are many folks who are like, “you're a white kid, don't go on the other side of Troost,” or whatever. I don't remember anybody actually telling me that, but somehow that was the message that I got along the way, whether it was watching the crimes on television or whatever else, so that I was afraid. And I was born in 1964. The Civil Rights Acts are just being passed. There were riots that were happening, protests, but then riots happening in Kansas City when I was a kid. I don't really remember that but it must have shaped a little bit of how I saw the world. It's just not been that long since these were part of, not only our culture, but our law and our city. When the Swope Park swimming pool shut down because now everyone had to be allowed to swim in the same pool. That was when I was a kid, I think. That might have been a little bit before I was born. I think from the time I was a kid, my teachers did a good job of “Dr. King was a hero” from the time I was little. I learned his speeches. I always felt like I had this longing for justice and racial justice. But I didn't have a clue. I didn't know the stories. And so part of this is actually listening to people's stories. And that's true in any area of life. It's true when you're talking about LGBTQ people. Like if you don't really actually take the time to listen to somebody's story and their pain and their life experience, then it's easy to have one sort of preconceived idea. There's not one African American experience, there’s not one Anglo experience or LGBTQ experience. It’s just listening to people and hearing our stories is what begins to change us from the inside out. All of a sudden, I know you, I care about you, and I've heard your story and it changes how I see the world. And so a lot of what we've done with Allies for Racial Justice at Resurrection is trying to get people together in small groups and connecting with people, just listening to each other's stories, which I find changes us. And that's not the whole answer. But that is one piece. When you actually listen to people's stories your view of the world changes. And when you try to walk in somebody else's shoes. That's where I think the real power is. I don't think it's so much in statements. We, as the largest church in the Kansas City area, we wanted to make a statement. We wanted to make a bold statement. I do wish we'd had some footnotes in it that would have said “hey, this is what this phrase means to us and this is what this phrase means” because I think it would have helped some of our people go, “okay, I get that.” You start off with a bold statement, but without helping people come along with you, bring them up to speed, it may feel off putting to some. But I think more than making bold statements and more than marching or showing up at a Pray on Troost event or whatever is actually taking the time to listen to people's stories. Asking people who are your co-workers, friends, neighbors: would you share with us your story? Here at Resurrection we've got a class right now called The Beloved Community, it's led by our pastors of color and they are inviting other people to share their stories. We have like 1,200 people signed up for this class they're doing on Zoom every Wednesday night, and then they're breaking into smaller groups after that. And there's just something that happens when you hear people's stories that helps change your perspective on life. And suddenly you go, “Well, maybe I did have some privilege that I didn't know about” or “maybe there are some biases that I have I didn't realize,” “maybe I have some racism internalized that I didn't know about.”
Fr. Justin: Yeah, it's easy to dehumanize somebody when you don't actually know who they are. And I remember, I'll just share a brief story of my own. I was in Thelma's Kitchen on Troost. And there was an African American trans woman who was in the bathroom and she was obviously having a really significant psychotic event. There's all sorts of different people in Thelma’s, it's a restaurant, not a soup kitchen. And so it was really challenging, because she was really, really suffering. And I was called down and I came to the bathroom door, and I knocked on the door. And I actually thought that she was in some sort of medical condition or a harm to herself. And so I opened the door. And when I did, she was in a fetal position on the ground next to the toilet, and just sobbing. And I sat down with her on the floor of the bathroom, and instead of rushing to call police or rushing to call an ambulance, I had been challenged recently at that time to actually listen more. And so I sat and I just began to listen and to kind of have that ministry of presence. And as I did, she was actually reliving the moments in her life when her mother had been killed and she was hiding in a closet. We so often look at people and say, “what is wrong with you?” And I was taught by some of my accountability partners to say, “what happened to you?” and to really begin to listen. And I think what you're saying is so important. It's difficult to do, though. So what do you say to a leader who works in the for-profit sector, is not a pastor, not independently wealthy, volunteering their time or not in the nonprofit sector? What do you say to them? Where did they begin? Certainly, you've got this sounds like an awesome resource with the Zoom meeting. And if you go to cor.org, hopefully you can find a link to some of those resources. But on a personal level, where do we begin? Where does someone who wants to be a social leader start to listen? And what are the mechanics of that? How do they do that?
Pastor Hamilton: I think that's great. So I do think finding the people that you can listen to in your organization is important. Inviting people to share with you their stories. I think there's plenty of books out there that you can start to read. I've just started another one. White Fragility, I was reading a couple weeks ago. Right now I just started a book called So You Want To Talk About Race, but there's a whole host of books that are out there. And in fact, we're trying to assemble a resource of things or a set of books that people can listen to or read that will help them be able to think about this, but I think the best is, again, face to face conversations with people. And we have folks in our congregation who do this training for their vocation, for their career. I've got somebody who's been doing it in the military for 30 years, a real leader. Now she is working with the Department of Defense. And part of what I'm asking is for her and some others in our congregation who do this for a living to help us design additional training so that we can help people listen, help people understand and hear. But I do think a lot of it has to do with stories and it has to do with people. I love this image of you, Justin, sitting on the floor with this woman in the bathroom who's in pain. I think that's what Jesus did. I think he spent time with people, he listened, he cared, he paid attention. That idea of paying attention, I think of the woman who touched the hem of his garment and he sense somehow there was a woman who was hurting. “Who touched me?” and he's looking around. And I just think that is really important, paying attention. I think there's a lot of times there's people out there who are saying things or doing things that just really irritate us. Like, I got emails about somebody who was talking about wanting to take down statues of Jesus, the white Jesus, “we need to take down these statues.” Well, okay, so I’m not in favor of taking down these statues. I am in favor of trying to hear what is behind that. I'm in favor of going “okay, well help me understand why, what does that mean?” And when I try to understand that then I understand that for some people Jesus has been portrayed as a white guy for a very long time and that was part of that added to the sense of, “okay, so the white people are the ones who look like God, God came in the flesh, he came as a white person.” And so, there's a whole lot that's underneath that. So I don't have to say we're going to take down The Pietà in Rome and discard it to be able to say, “okay, let me hear what this person is saying.” And to put on hold for just a minute, my immediate visceral reaction to this and to be able to try to understand why is this person saying this and is there any truth underneath. I don't have to agree with everything they say. But is there some truth underneath it? And I think it's critical always.
Fr. Justin: Yeah. I would love to hear your thoughts though, about when somebody wants to begin that journey and they begin to listen, and they begin to be overwhelmed with the things that they're learning. I think people can get paralyzed. They especially if white folks who have positions of authority begin to sort of wake up to the things that they didn't see before regarding racial and economic inequity and other issues. Where do they turn to unpack those things? Certainly the church plays a role. But where else should they turn? You've mentioned some books. What do they do once they get beyond the initial phase, and then begin to want to grow in a continual way?
Pastor Hamilton: That's a really great question. I'm not sure the answer, to be quite honest. I think a lot of it is about relationships. A lot of it is about looking to see where do I need to speak up, where I've been silent before, what are the ways that I can use my influence. Here at Resurrection, one of the things we recognized is we need to do a better job of actually recruiting and looking to hire people of color. So our pastoral staff I think, is 20% people of color, but the rest of our staff far below that. And we end up hiring people who know people. We have a position come open, we invite applications, most of the people who apply are people who know Resurrection, maybe they go to Resurrection. And a high percentage of our people are Caucasian. And so we're saying, “okay, actually, we have to work harder at this and we have to be more intentional about a whole lot of things.” So it has to do with who's leading from the chancel when we're leading worship. How are we inviting more African American voices to preach? So we're making some conscious decisions. We moved one of our pastors into a position of Pastor of Community Justice, one of our African American pastors, asking her to be a part of our leadership team where we're making decisions so she can be listening and hearing in a different way. Well, we need more than just one pastor who's on our team doing that. And we have several others who are doing the same on a broader team, but there's a lot of things that we can be doing better and I'm embarrassed that we haven't thought to do those. There's another place to repent. I feel like we could have done a lot better job over a long period of time and just have not. And so I think that's where a lot of companies are right now too. I think that's a really good place to be, to say, “okay, how do we go about recruiting, how do we go about putting people in positions to listen and understand?” We've been trying over a long period of time to say, “okay, when we're using videos, when we have photos, how are we making sure we're including everybody in those?” Because it's so easy. Resurrection reflects the community, the Leawood campus anyway, reflects the community around us in south Johnston County. We're 90%+ white. So you got to really work when we're producing interviews, or videos, or I'm talking to different people that I'm going to go out of my way to find the 10% of the congregation who don't reflect a white presence, visual presence, or even experience and invite them to be sharing their stories. And so we're trying. We've been trying to do that for some years now, but I think we can do a better job of that as well.
Fr. Justin: I think you've actually hit on a couple things, whether they were consciously formulated or not. One of the things is just being intentional, to try to be authentic, and making that a purpose. I think the second thing is you acknowledge the deficits and have done that publicly, you've done that openly, and you've gone about the process of repentance or metanoia, changing the mind, turning around. I think the other thing that you did is you've said today that leaders need to move beyond sort of charitable intention, and workshops, and awareness, and they need to get to operationalizing these priorities. And you did that by lifting up somebody to really lead in that area. And I think those are a lot of things that companies need to start with. There are a lot of things that leaders can do. They're not that complicated. And I don't think you have to have everything perfect. You don't have to know everything before you begin. Do you?
Pastor Hamilton: No, absolutely not. And part of what you've got to recognize, I think, is whenever you start to do something, there will be somebody who is critical. And I actually find that both on the left and the right. Methodism is sort of this via media, this middle way, where we're trying to hold together in tension the left and the right. And so I found when I started into the sermons, we had an evening conversation one night with three of our pastors of color, and I just wanted to try to listen. Well, I asked a question that somebody said, “you shouldn't have asked that question.” They're probably right. But eventually I get blasted and that's okay. That's just part of it. My first sermon I preached I had several people like “you've missed an opportunity, you should have said this or that.” I'm like, “hey, that sounds like a great sermon you had in mind. I'm trying to shepherd this congregation the best I can as a senior pastor.” I'm going to blow it. I'm going to make mistakes and I think that's also part of where we get stuck. Especially, white folks, we get stuck because we're afraid of making a mistake. Like what if I say the wrong thing and then somebody gets mad because I was insensitive here, I said the wrong thing. And there will be people who will criticize you and will just tell you how you just blew it, you know? And so we get defensive about that. It's like, well, it's better if I don't say anything to be criticized there. And then on the other side we have people who are critical that you're even saying anything at all. And I think somewhere you’ve got to find a voice and say, “okay, I might mess up on this, I might get it wrong, but I'm still gonna, I need to say something.”
Fr. Justin: In business and entrepreneurship, we sure embrace the kind of modern idea of fail fast pivot. And I think we need to make room for that for ourselves in these really difficult conversations, whether they're racial, religious, economic, political. Don't be afraid to say you're wrong. Well, we're bumping up against time, and I really appreciate it. But I always end every podcast with this question, and that is that I want to know what advice would you give to leaders in any sector when they want to embrace the idea of increasing their social impact. If they want to become social leaders in their leadership lane, what are two or three things that they need to do that you can share from your experience?
Pastor Hamilton: That's a great question. First of all, before I answer that question, I just want to be clear that doing this is not easy and it requires a little modicum of courage to well up, to say I'm going to address things that are issues that face our society, places where things are broken in our society. And then you've got to figure out, especially if you're in the business sector, but in the church world, you got to figure out how do I address this in a way that helps people hear and how do I make sure I've done my research and I've done my homework so I'm not just blurting out my latest conviction or my soapbox, but how do I actually study to know what I'm talking about? And then say it in a way that helps people come along, because you either say things in a way that alienates them or you say things in a way that brings people along, and I've done both. I've tried very hard to say things in a way that helps people go, “oh, wow, I hadn't seen it that way before” and they have a real conversion. But sometimes it happens where you've actually pushed people away. And sometimes people are going to leave. I'm reminded of John 6:66, that’s an easy verse to remember if you think of 666. And in John 6:66, it says that many people turned away from Jesus, many of his disciples turned away. And so he knew what it was like to say things that people were offended by and they turned away. It hurts when you have customers who send you a note and say, “I'm not going to do business with you anymore because I don't like what you said there.” A lot of times they don't even tell you but they just stopped doing business with you. It hurts when your members tell you “I can't come to this church this week.” I had a note from a woman who said, “what happened to the pastor who led me back to Jesus? I want to take notes every time you preached about the Bible, but now you seem to be preaching about these issues. You have this need to be a civic leader in this area.” I'm like, okay, I don't think that was what was motivating me. But it was painful. You read that you go, really? I think Jesus cares about all this stuff. I think this matters to him. If he doesn't care about this, then what does he care about? But those are the kind of comments you're going to get sometimes and you’ve got to be okay with the fact that people will sometimes be upset and sometimes they're going to reject you. And in the end, looking back over the 30 years of pastoral ministry here at Resurrection, most of the things that I'm actually most proud of, proud is not the right word, but that were places where it took a little bit of courage, I had to screw up my courage to be able to speak about something that was hard. And there were some people who were mad. And yet, in the end, I think it was the thing that God wanted me to do. And I would say for civic leaders, business leaders, sometimes it's figuring out how do I address that in my realm? So in your area of influence, using your influence for the maximum good. All of us have influence. We have people, we have a platform of somebody and using that in a way that can bring about the most good. I think about Ronald Heifetz at the Kennedy School at Harvard. He wrote a book called Leadership Without Easy Answers. And he has this way of talking about how you go about finding places where you need to step in. He talks about the world as it is, and then the world as it’s supposed to be. And the goal is to close the gap between the world as it is and the world as it’s supposed to be. So part of what you’ve got to figure out is how's the world supposed to be? Jesus talked about that as the kingdom of God. If you're a business leader, what do you think the world is supposed to look like? Put your best thinking into what should our city look like and then where are the places where there's a difference between how the world is and how it's supposed to be? And then what are we going to do as a business? What are we going to do as a nonprofit? What are we going to do to close the gap between the world as it is and the world as it's supposed to be? And I think those are the places. I’ll tell you, your employees and your shareholders, especially your employees but your stakeholders. When you've done something selfless, to help the world look more like it's supposed to look, people go “that's the kind of company I want to work for. That's the kind of leader I want to work for. That's the kind of company I want to do business with. They actually care about our community and it's not just about selling more products and increasing shareholder price, but it's about actually doing good while doing well.” In the end, when you retire, and you can look back over your career and say, I helped to make this city a better place, I helped human beings know that they were valued, I helped solve problems, I helped children get an education, whatever it might be. You guys are doing a great job of addressing one of those needs at Reconciliation Services. You saw a need and you said, “okay, we want to close the gap here.” And that’s what we're trying to do at Resurrection in a lot of different ways and when we all do that, that's leadership and then our city has changed in positive ways. So I appreciate your podcasts and I appreciate Father Justin, what you're doing, what you guys are doing to try to help Kansas City look like God's kingdom. And I just commend you for it and grateful to have a chance to know you to watch and see what y'all are doing.
Fr. Justin: Well, the feeling is mutual. And thank you for giving us so much time today and dropping the knowledge that you have, but also sharing your vulnerable journey, that you've screwed up, that you've repented, that you're trying, that you've said hard things, that you've been silent. All of those things are necessary to admit as we journey together and hold one another accountable. Iron sharpening iron. So, Adam, thank you for your time today and I look forward to possibly having you on the podcast again. And I'm definitely going to go and check the listening series that you have. Can you call that out one more time?
Pastor Hamilton: It's The Beloved Community and it should be on our website. I think they post it after each Wednesday night. It started a week ago. And your folks might be interested in checking out the sermons too, from the last four weeks. A Dream Still Deferred. And then the second one was called Jesus, Protests and Repentance. And then Emanuel Cleaver preached one the third week of that series. So this was the first three weekends of June and those are on our website too. You can find the sermons there. You can find The Beloved Community sharing there. You can find a Tuesday night Vespers service that I did that has three of our pastors in it, people of color who shared their stories as well.
Fr. Justin: Well, Pastor Adam Hamilton, thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much.
Pastor Hamilton: Thanks, Father Justin, good to see you.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, likewise, hang with me for one second. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I have a favor to ask of you if you did. If you would go onto YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, wherever you listen to this podcast and smash that like button, follow us, hit the little bell icon. It's going to really help us to share this podcast out with more people who are desiring to become social leaders and to further their journey towards these values that we've been talking about today. And also, I'm excited to tell you about a new e-course that's getting ready to launch. It's called The Social Leader. And it's designed especially for people who want to advance their knowledge about the core fundamentals, the essentials of becoming a social leader, and embracing the things that we talk about every week on this podcast in their own life. You can find out more by going to TheSocialLeader.org and fill out a few questions for us, and one of our team’s gonna reach out to you, and see if this course is right for you. So until next week, thank you so much for joining us on The Social Leader podcast. I look forward to talking to you very soon.
In this espisode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Bill Brandmeyer of 810 Sports Radio and the new ShareWaves Foundation. They discuss the potential for youth sports to advance racial reconciliation in the region - as it has in other countries - and make a positive impact on kids. They also discuss Bill's thoughts on social leadership and making non-profits self-sustaining.
EPISODE 14 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Well, hello everybody and welcome to The Social Leader podcast, episode 14, where our goal is to help you learn to lead with greater social impact. Hi, I'm Father Justin Mathews and real quick before we begin, I wanted to let you know that this podcast is presented by Reconciliation Services, which is a nonprofit social venture in Kansas City, working to cultivate a community seeking racial and economic reconciliation to reveal the strength of all. You can find out more about Reconciliation Services programs, and even support our work at rs3101.org. Here we go into Episode 14!
Fr. Justin: Welcome! My guest today is Bill Brandmeyer. I'm very excited to welcome him to the program! Bill has been the VP of Community Relations and Impact for Sports Radio 810, as well as the Executive Director of a brand new foundation called the Share Waves Foundation. Bill, welcome to The Social Leader podcast.
Bill Brandmeyer: I'm honored to be here. I'm so excited that I get a chance to talk with you and really just kind of open up about what's good about Kansas City, what Kansas City does to really reach out to one another and lift each other up, so thanks for having me.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. It's great to have you on. We've had a great partnership in the past with 810 Radio and I’m excited to talk about the ways that 810 is going to be using Share Waves, powered by 810, to really advance the mission of sports and what can be done. So Bill, I really want to jump in here and begin by asking you to tell us about this new foundation that you've started with Sports Radio 810, called Share Waves, what's the mission and what's the purpose of the Share Waves Foundation?
Bill: Well, 810 has been a part of the Kansas City sports complex for 21 years. They're the largest sports talk radio station in the Midwest. They've done so many different things to reach out to the community and make a difference. They're always opening up their airwaves to different nonprofits, helping tell stories about what makes Kansas City special, promoting events. Their on-air personalities are constantly helping emcee events and bring attention to events. We offer our support through PSA’s, which are public service announcements, and other things. So it's not like this is anything new. Share Waves is just something that we came up with that would allow us to focus our attention on something specific, to have our own cause. Something that 810 and Union Broadcasting as a company could all get behind and try to make a difference in the community. We felt like by joining around and getting ourselves focused on one purpose, we become a purpose driven organization that really does greater impact. And that's what Share Waves is all about.
Fr. Justin: I know that you come from kind of a marketing background before you did this. You've done a lot of that. Now that means that you know how to write awesome mission statements. And when I went to your website, I noticed that you had a great mission statement. Tell us about the actual mission of Share Waves and make it tangible. What are you hoping to do with the Share Waves Foundation?
Bill: We want to advance opportunities for kids to engage with sports throughout the metro. In our community, sports is such an important part of the fabric of a kid's life. When they engage with sports, they engage with something greater than themselves. They learn how to work together to achieve goals, they learn life skills, emotionally their intelligence is increased by the social skills they learn, they learn to listen. There's also a lot of practical life metrics. You can measure the difference sports makes in a child's life through measuring their grades or their dropout rate. Screen time goes down when kids engage with sports. But there are some issues in youth sports. And the biggest question I got from 810 when I asked them if I could move forward with creating a foundation focused on youth sports was: is it a big enough issue? We're not curing cancer here. Why would we be engaged in helping kids play sports? Everybody seems to be fine. They're playing sports. What you find out is that there's really the haves and have nots, and that's where Share Waves is really focused. Our platform is set up to address the situations in our city that allow kids to play certain sports because they can afford it and other kids have no access to those sports because they're priced out of it. They can't afford it and they go on and play soccer and basketball. Those are great sports for kids to play and those are easily accessible, but that's not the end of the line. There's so many other great sports out there that we should be able to offer to all kids. The playing field should be leveled. And so Share Waves has this mission to advance opportunities, specifically in low income houses, to help them find ways to get into the sports they want to play.
Fr. Justin: But I want to get deeper into the mission and what could be possible, particularly right now because of COVID and the shutdown of so many different camps and sports. But before we jump into that, I want to jump back a little bit and ask you: where did your passion for youth sports come from and your passion for using sports to transform the lives of kids? Is there a story from your childhood or from your philanthropic work with your family that you've undertaken that you can share with us that would illumine that passion?
Bill: Well, it's funny. I look at this as an awesome opportunity to do something that I've always loved. I've always loved sports. I used to wake up early in the morning, I'd be the first one to get to the sports page, and I'd comb through it. I was a stats guy. I never was going to play anything at a high level. Athletic wise, I've got some good skill, hand coordination, whatever, but I wasn't going to be a pro anything. But I always had this passion for sports. I got to know the guys at 810 WHB through my other nonprofit that I started about 10 years ago, called KC Creative. And KC Creative basically drew upon my marketing background to try to help nonprofits with their marketing expertise, their services, create websites, and collateral, try to help tell their story in a more concise way. And really, we ended up being a video production house for nonprofits to use and won some Philly Awards through the Nonprofit Connect and did some great work with some awesome organizations, but the best thing that KC Creative ever did was a one hour radio show once a week called KC Cares. And that was basically our opportunity to interview nonprofits, similar to what you're doing, telling stories about what makes Kansas City so special. We would have three different nonprofits on every single week. We’d tell their story. It'd be a nice little 15 minute segment about Ronald McDonald House or Operation Breakthrough or Della Lamb and we dig into the story and try to tell it and offer that up as a service. I'm not sure anybody listened, but I think you probably kind of feel that, like who's listening? Every now and then you get an incredible message from someone that said “that program changed me” or “that program gave me an insight that I didn't have,” which always felt good, but I always was looking for more. I saw the opportunity to use the platform that Union Broadcasting and 810 have worked so hard to create over 21 years. I wanted to commandeer that. I wanted to harness the power of sports at 810 and use it for good and that's pretty much what Share Waves is trying to do. We share our airwaves with nonprofits that use sports to connect to kids. We also help promote events that use sports to connect to their donor population, their donor group. And then we also look for ways to create programming that will help level the playing field for kids that don't have access to the country club sports. They can't find a way to play golf or baseball or hockey or lacrosse. All of those price kids out of their access because access is privileged and it's one of those things that in today's world and this environment, Black Lives Matter, what we're looking at with social injustice, how this is playing out in the consciousness of our culture. Realizing that access is privilege is one of the key things that we want to drive home to everyone who's listening or who's trying to understand what's happening. It's about access. It's about opportunities.
Fr. Justin: Well, by the way, if people are listening online right now on Facebook or YouTube, please comment live and we’ll see if we can bring you in on the podcast and get your comments in. Now, you know, Bill, as I hear you talking about this, I gotta be honest, my mind, my heart has been full with the Black Lives Matter protests, then with COVID before that, and there's so much good that's happening right now, to begin to change and to address and to illumine the structural racism, the economic injustices that have existed for so long. And there seems to be a groundswell. I have to think about sports. And as I was getting ready for our podcast, I thought, ‘Oh gosh, how is sports gonna really play into the common zeitgeist right now? What's happening?’ But there's evidence from all over the world that sports can be a powerful tool for community healing. I found a quote by Nelson Mandela who once said that sports has the power to change the world. And I'd love for you to share: how do you think that youth sports can benefit the lives of the kids in our community and the city as a whole? And what are some of the tangible outcomes that you've seen or that you hope to see, especially in these difficult times?
Bill: Yeah, the power of sports to connect us as a community is witnessed by the world champion Royals, the world champion Chiefs. Our city comes together a million people showing up to celebrate winning and we're all one, we're all together. Everybody was on the same page, high fiving, loving one another. The Chiefs are number one! The Royals are number one! What an incredible experience. We know the power of sports here in Kansas City. For the fabric of our youth. For what the opportunity is for us to be able to connect with our kids through sports. It’s such a great mechanism for ability to talk about things that are real, authentic conversations about how you pursue goals, how you achieve greatness, how you lose, how you win, all of those small little life lessons and there are thousands of youth sports organizations that are helping in different ways, to do different things, to impact kids with sports. Share Waves isn't the only one. We have a unique opportunity because we can partner with nonprofits that are already programming youth sports, already using sports to connect to kids. We can bring attention to them through our airwaves and that's why Share Waves has a unique position. I think to understand what is happening throughout our community at different levels, understand the enormity of the issue of racial justice, you have to break it down into the individual aspects of what people experience. My life was incredibly blessed. I could tell my story to you and it would sound like I had a lot of issues to overcome in my life, a lot of things that gave me trial and tribulation. What worketh patience? Tribulation worketh patience. I have a lot of patience, I promise. But I have no idea what it's like to live a life where the color of your skin dictates the way someone speaks at you, or talks to you, or positions you, or puts you in the right chair, or make sure that you sit next to the right person, or any of that. That's not how I think. I think about connections, I think about how I'm going to interact with someone. One of the things that I carry around as part of my life mission is I want to meet someone and I want them to teach me something about their life. I want them to tell me what they've experienced in their life as a master of something that they've experienced, so that I can take that into my life and I can learn and grow. And I think if we did more of that, as a community, if we sought to understand rather than to be understood, if we kind of took what St. Francis of Assisi just kind of gave to us as just this incredible gift of ‘let's make it better than we found it,’ that's kind of how I live my life.
Fr. Justin: Sports has been used all over the world. Not only Nelson Mandela and his quote, but I can find story after story of the way that sports has been used in Israel, in South Africa, even in Canada. And like social leadership, using sports for reconciliation is all about bringing people together, rebuilding relationships, creating a dialogue that can lead to greater understanding of the roots of conflict. And as I think about South Africa and Canada and how they've used sports as a part of their Truth and Reconciliation Commission and that work, particularly in this time where we're needing to address structural racism, call it out, I think we need to find creative ways to sustain and then advance the cause of reconciliation. We can't just talk about it. So how will youth sports, really even here tangibly, how will it advance that effort for reconciliation though?
Bill: Well COVID has given us a really unique chance with youth sports because it's drawn everyone into what can I do myself, at home, alone to improve and stay ready? Because I know we're going to play again someday, I don't know when that is, but we're going to get back out on that field. And I need to take personal responsibility for my physical fitness, my skill development. I need to find access to different opportunities to keep working on my skill set. So COVID's had that unique impact on us. I think it's also given us a chance to really appreciate what it means to be together for an event, a sporting event, together as a team, together in the stands as fans. It's really kind of brought a spotlight on what the meaning of sports has been to our community because we've been without it for three months going on four. And I think that it's never been more apparent how much we miss that social interaction. Kids miss it. I think it's the result of being away, separated, alone, isolated in your home, we’re still going to feel the repercussions of those traumas on kids for many years. We're not gonna really understand them for a while, but they're present. People who are studying that, they see that as a really clear outcome to this separation from social interaction. It's gonna do some damage. And I think that we have an opportunity as we kind of re-approach the re-engagement with sports to maybe set a different criteria or expectation of what we want to get out of sports. The most incredible stat about youth sports that I've come across as I dug into this is that at age 13 we lose 65-70% of young athletes to other activities. It's their eighth grade year. They're going into high school and they basically tell themselves or the world, sports are not going to be a part of my high school experience. They're not going to be a part of what I'm going to do for the rest of my life, because I'm not good enough, or it's not fun anymore, or my dad's been pushing me too hard, or hey, I like music, I just want to play music, or I want to play chess. Those are awesome endeavors. But to think that we lose 70% of our kids from this unique opportunity to learn so many important life skills and so many different things that will help drive us into success. It's a really staggering stat. And it's something that we at Share Waves want to do something about. We think that rec sports, sports for the fun of it, free play for kids, opening up fields and letting kids just do what they normally would do on a playdate outside, those are great opportunities. It doesn't have to be structured. It doesn't have to be competing for the national championship or the citywide championship. All of that is really important and competitive excellence is certainly intrical to us, but I also think we could take a step back and really enrich people's lives, kids’ lives, if we can create sports opportunities, participation opportunities that are a little less pressured and little more about what you can get that's good from sports.
Fr. Justin: Well, I know you're not doing this in a vacuum either. There are a lot of people that you've partnered with already. I think you partner with Boys and Girls Club of Kansas City, you've partnered with Girls on the Run. There are a lot of other organizations that are already involved in this. And I'd like to sort of transition our conversation a little bit to kind of dive in a little bit to social leadership. I know one of the things that you and I have talked about, before the COVID-19 pandemic, you'd shared with me that one of your goals in Share Waves is that in 2020, you wanted to become really self-sustaining as a foundation through those partnerships. And I know that you and I both share a passion for social leadership and social entrepreneurship, social venturing. So why is that important to you, that self-sustaining aspect to this work, and how do you intend to achieve that goal, Bill?
Bill: Well, we entered 2020 with that as our key objective, becoming self sustaining. And the reason why is because you really cannot take an organization and build it with a wish and a prayer. It has to be structured in a way that allows it to grow through the process of creating strategies and understanding what it is that you're trying to get accomplished with your eyes on that outcome, the goal, what you're trying to get produced. And there's so many aspects of it. You just don't do what you need to do to be successful because you can't afford it. And so you're always just picking it, like the cousin that got a new camera to shoot a video or my nephew was studying web design, and so I'm going to have him build my website. And I'm going to piece this all together. And what you end up with is almost an organization that operates and looks a little bit like Frankenstein. It's very tactical, it doesn't really have any long range play, because it doesn't really understand what it's trying to get accomplished in the long term. It's very short sighted. It doesn't mean it doesn't do good work. KC Cares was a great program. It was awesome, but I funded it and that's not the way you're supposed to do this. It's got to be a way where people embrace it, and the community can embrace it, and you can build a group of donors that are dedicated to the outcomes that you're trying to achieve. And so, it's been quite a process. We started 2020 with a really good plan. We had three awesome events that we were going to pull off. We're partnered with Charlie Hustle, which is an incredible organization here in Kansas City. We had two other nonprofits, Noah's Bandage Project and The Battle Within. We were all working together to present these three awesome events that use sports to connect and they all got canceled.
Fr. Justin: COVID’s wrecked a lot of plans. And I think actually that's why it's important if people want to go online and they want to help impact the kids lives in our community, if you have a passion for youth sports and changing kids’ lives, bringing people together, you want to do something tangible in order to foster racial and economic reconciliation here in the community, the website is ShareWavesFoundation.org. And I know you can go to the website and make a donation. Bill, I wish we could talk for an hour and a half because I think this is a really important conversation. But before we go, I want to ask you, what is the potential negative impact if we don't have sports this summer? We've talked a little bit about what can happen, impacting academics, impacting leadership development, but if we don't figure out how to have kids in sports this summer in light of COVID-19? What's the potential negative outcome? Why is this such an important issue, especially right now?
Bill: Well, you think of an under-resourced house that is trying to figure out what the next phase of opening is. They're going to have to go work but they've got kids at home and the normal network of support that would be there for them, organizations like The Upper Room, Operation Breakthrough, Big Brothers Big Sisters, Boys and Girls Club, they're operating at less than full efficiency there. I think Dr. Dred Scott said that Boys and Girls Club is operating at about a third capacity. The Upper Room, which normally serves between 2,500-3,000 kids a summer is not offering any services this summer. Operation Breakthrough has been limited. There's probably 15 organizations that serve youth in terms of childcare that are either not functioning at full capacity or not functioning at all. So there's a tremendous fear on my part, it's a personal fear
and I don't have anything to back it up. But I think that we're going to have some situations where anxiety, stress, depression are all impacting our kids at different levels of impact and in different levels of acuity. I think that we do need to stay aware of emergent issues, emergent situations. I would like to raise money and help support opportunities to provide individual help to individual cases where there are moments where we need to find out ‘hey, this family needs a thousand dollars for rent or they're gonna lose their apartment’ or ‘this family has to get connected to the internet, they just need $50 a month in order to stay connected.’ I think that as we kind of go through this summer, we're gonna learn a lot about what it means to not have sports. I think in a lot of families that is something that they've not been able to access. There’s also sports opening up. Kansas City's a little bit looser than other communities, in terms of letting kids get back out on the fields, and so we are opening up. But once again, opening up in Kansas City means the kids in Johnson County are playing and the kids in Kansas City, Missouri aren't. That's a big issue. And that's something that I want to try to do something about.
Fr. Justin: It takes leadership in order to bring a community to where there is equity. And I think sports offers us an opportunity, starting with our kids, to really begin. Even if it's just one particular small segment of what really needs to be done. I think it is one way that we can, no pun intended, level the playing field. And I appreciate your leadership in it. I know that you've been involved, as you've indicated, in some form of social leadership in various different sectors for many years. And I want to end our time together with this question, because there are a lot of people listening who are wanting to do something, they are wanting to get involved and make a difference. So if there are leaders out there who are wanting to embrace social leadership and increase their social impact, what advice would you give to them based on what you've learned? Where do they begin?
Bill: I've researched a lot about purpose driven organizations, purpose driven transformation, social entrepreneurship. I think it has to start with your own passion for what it is that you want to see changed in this world, what is this world to you in terms of what's right and what's wrong, and find something that you feel like you can make an impact in given the talents and the gifts that God has given you. I've done a lot of soul searching about who and what I am and what God's blessed me with. I have a lot of great talents that have been shared with me and I think of those that have been given abundantly, a lot is expected of them. And that's something that I believe that we all need to kind of hold on to is that idea that we've been given a lot. You live in America, you live in freakin’ Kansas City, you live in the heart of America that has this beautiful space. And we all need to use our time, talent, and treasure to make a difference in this world in something. Make a change. Make something better. Make it better than you found it. And so the other thing I want to do before we leave is I want to invite everybody to join us next week for Ready To Play week. Ready To Play has been a campaign we've worked on for the last 10 weeks, creating little videos for kids to access to help stay fit and ready when games begin again. “Stay Ready To Play” has kind of been our mantra. We're going to have a whole week talking about the safe return to sports. We're going to talk to experts, high school and college coaches. We're going to have all stars on. Will Shields has stepped up to be our partner and the Ready To Play week is just about to take off. Quinton Lucas is going to be on, Bill Self, but we're also going to get the doctors from Children's Mercy and KU to talk about youth sports and the guidelines of how we safely re-engage. And we're going to raise money all week to help create a camp for kids. Will Shields has donated his indoor space and we're going to create camps for kids that don't have access to sports camps and try to give kids at least some sense of summer.
Fr. Justin: Where are we going to find that campaign? Where are we going to find the Ready To Play campaign?
Bill: We're going to be on live every day on 1510 AM and 94.5 FM. Those are the sister stations for 810 WHB. So we're going to be on live from 1-3pm from Monday, June 29 until Friday, July 3. Every single day a different topic. We're going to cover the science of the safe return to sports on Monday, youth sports on Tuesday, high school sports on Wednesday, college sports on Thursday, and the professionals on Friday. We'll have different guests on all week. I'm getting a lot of help from 810 to put it together. It's going to be an incredible week for us. We're going to be all over social media. Ready To Play week is our opportunity to get ready to get back out on the field. So that's what we're excited about.
Fr. Justin: That's an awesome campaign and a great way for folks to get involved. And I think Kansas City is the greatest sports town in the entire country. We’ve got the best baseball, the best football, we've got a home grown decades old sports radio show that we've partnered with at Reconciliation Services, and I love what you're doing. And again, my focus and my passion is around racial and economic reconciliation and I wanted you to come on the show, not only because of your social leadership in the community for so many years, but I was hoping to be able to lift up the idea that we have seen in so many other countries that things like sports, these creative applications of things that are really a part of the fabric of everyday life. These things can be creative ways to bring folks together to make a difference, to lead in social change and make a greater impact, particularly as we look at racial and economic reconciliation, at dismantling structural racism. This is a fantastic way to bring our kids together in a new modality and to make sure that everybody has access to that opportunity. So Bill, I really appreciate your time today. I want to throw the Share Waves website up again. So if you're not able to tune in to the campaign next week on the radio, make sure to go to ShareWavesFoundation.org, make a donation, get involved, and reach out to Bill and see how you can volunteer, how you can help. Bill, anything else that you want to leave us with today before we head off into our day?
Bill: No, I think you summed it up. I think everybody needs to check out what Reconciliation Services has done down on Troost. It's just amazing. If you haven't been to Thelma's Kitchen, you have to go there. I really appreciate you, your heart. From the moment we met, I knew that we were going to be good friends. And I'm just excited about what the future holds for us. So, thank you so much.
Fr. Justin: Thank you for taking the time to come on today. Hang with me for a minute. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody, thank you so much for joining us today and for checking out what Bill is working on. Thank you for listening today. And if you like today's podcast I have a favor to ask of you. Please follow this podcast on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, smash that like button, follow us. This is going to really help us share the show with more people. And also I wanted to let you know about a brand new program that's launching soon. If you like today's show and you want to learn about how to lead with greater social impact, if you want to learn about social leadership so that you can figure out how to do the things that Bill and others in our community are doing to make change right now, I want to ask you to visit TheSocialLeader.org and sign up to find out more about our new e-course called Social Leader Essentials, which is launching very soon. You can answer a few short questions and then one of our team members will reach out to you to see if that course is right for you. So friends again, thank you for joining us on The Social Leader podcast and until next time, I encourage you to learn to lead with greater social impact. See you soon.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Murray Woodard II, Program Officer in Education for the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation. They talk about the importance of seeing the need or issue right in front of you — the one that might literally jump in front of your moving car in Murray’s case — and how compassionate leadership looks like listening and acting right away. When a resident of the Gabriel Tower Apartments, who had been without air conditioning for weeks sent out a plea for help, Murray said he knew he had to do something. It wasn’t his area of expertise, but sometimes social leadership looks like making the pressing issue in front of you your issue.
EPISODE 13 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Everybody welcome to The Social Leader podcast, episode number 13. Our goal on this podcast is to help you learn to lead with greater social impact. I'm Father Justin Mathews, we've got a really special episode today. Real quick though before we begin, I want to let you know that today's podcast is presented by Reconciliation Services. We're a nonprofit social venture in Kansas City on Troost Avenue, working to cultivate a community seeking racial and economic reconciliation to reveal the strength of all. You can find out more about Reconciliation Services’ programs and even get involved, volunteer, or support our work at rs3101.org. Here we go, episode 13!
Alright, everybody, I want to welcome our special guest today, Murray Woodard. Welcome, Murray, how are you?
Murray: I'm doing well. Thank you, Father Justin, how are you doing?
Fr. Justin: It's so great to have you. For folks that don't know you or that are listening online, Murray, you're the Program Officer in Education for the Kauffman Foundation here in Kansas City. But in the last few days, Murray, you've been helping residents of the Gabriel Tower Apartments in Kansas City, Missouri. Working hard to bring attention to the plight of literally hundreds of older and disabled adults in Kansas City who've been without air conditioning and other essential services for weeks on some of the hottest days so far of the year here in Kansas City. I'm really grateful that you're that you're here with us and talking. I know a lot of people have been visiting with you. You've been doing Facebook Live posts. You've been all over the place and we've been friends for a long time. I just wanted to get a chance to bring you on so that you can share a little bit about what's going on. And it looks like you're actually in your car right now out front of the Gabriel Apartments. So tell us the situation. What have you been seeing? What have you been hearing?
Murray: Yeah, I am. I'm in my car right now sitting in front of Gabriel Apartments
waiting for the air to come back on. Essentially stumbled upon this situation Monday morning on the way back from a bike ride and residents were out in front protesting. One of the residents stepped out in front of my car essentially with a sign that said “we don't have air.” Pulled over to find out the residents in this 120+ unit tower hadn't had air for a little over three and a half weeks. After that, obviously, we learned that there's so many more problems here in the apartments themselves and we could talk a little bit about that shortly. So here working with residents and other community members that have really been here since we found out how to help keep pressure on the management company to help resolve this issue.
Fr. Justin: There's so much going on in Kansas City. There's so much going on all across the world. There are so many protests, so many things happening, that it gets overwhelming for people. But when you hear a story like this and you kind of begin to unpack the lived experience, it really brings it home. Could you tell us a story? You mentioned and introduced me earlier to the new tenant union president just elected yesterday. His name is Papi. Could you tell me what's going on? What are some stories? What did you see when you first got flagged down and walked in?
Murray: Papi’s not even the gentleman that flagged me down. A resident by the name of the LeeRoy flagged me down, but Papi was one of the first residents I met. And when I walked into the building on the first floor, first of all, the first thing I recognized was how hot it was. The second thing I recognized was the smell. And it was just because the trash has been backed up in the trash shoots for so long. But I saw Papi sitting there handwriting all the protest signs and I came to learn that he'd been organizing the residents in this building for some time to fight and try to get the word out about what was happening to them.
Fr. Justin: He's writing these signs like in a wheelchair though, right?
Murray: Yeah, Papi is in a motorized wheelchair, but a natural born leader. The union itself is newly formed. In fact, it's a day old. Papi was organizing the tenants in this building from day one. That was evident the first time I stepped foot in this tower.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, we always talk about that the solutions live in the community and I think that's like a little ephemeral for people. That's like academic. But I mean, this is a perfect example. Like Papi knew exactly what needed to be done. And sitting in a wheelchair wasn't going to hold him back, right? I think that's an amazing example of that. So when you walked in, I know you told me that you saw older adults in wheelchairs outside just trying to get a breath of fresh air. They're dripping in sweat. Like, what did you actually see when you walked in?
Murray: So, it was hot to me just outside. We've had 90 plus degree days, obviously, here in Kansas City. It feels a lot hotter than what the temperature is itself. And so to see the residents sitting out, some with oxygen tanks, several in motorized wheelchairs, and others in whatever types of seats they can find, sitting outside,to escape the heat inside. And I think that's what was interesting to me. They sat outside because the hot breeze out here was cooler and much more refreshing on them than sitting inside their building in this confined space with the heat and humidity they had going on in there.
Fr. Justin: It's like a big brick building. It’s huge. It’s like an oven!
Murray: Absolutely, nine stories building. I saw a couple of fans in the windows. Two of the residents had already went and purchased their own window AC units, which is actually against the lease agreement. They're not supposed to have those. They decided it was too hot and had those anyway. So I knew immediately we had to figure out something. There was just no way that I could ever imagine you'd have a facility this large serving this population of community members. Think about it. Individuals on oxygen tanks, struggling to breathe already, sitting inside of a home that's reaching upwards of 100 degrees inside.
Fr. Justin: So tell us who lives in the Gabriel Tower Apartments, like who's there? Who’s the population? Who is it who we're talking about?
Murray: I grew up in Kansas City. I always thought that this was just a facility for seniors. I've come to learn it's seniors and disabled individuals, as well. A lot of folks here have both physical and some have even developmental disabilities, in addition to seniors. But what you'll find is they're also families here and so I didn't expect to come in this building and see young people. There are school age kids here as well. And so we've had Kansas City Public Schools here to provide services and supplies and things of that nature to the students because we just had no idea that this building serves entire families. Like I said, I thought it was a senior center and there's much more than just seniors here.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. Where is it located? Where are you right now?
Murray: Right on the corner, 1600 Jackson Avenue is the address. Right at the intersection of Jackson and Truman Road.
Fr. Justin: Okay, so what's being asked for and to be more specific, why haven't they gotten it? Where's the management company? What's being asked for and what's the problem?
Murray: Initially, I thought the ask, again, was just for air. What I'd noticed after being here is that they had so many more challenges, washers and dryers that weren't working, trash chutes that hadn't been emptied and trash had piled the way up to the chute, nearly the seventh floor, mold and water damage. So you had tons of demands far beyond just the air. Air is something I think most people can relate to, particularly in the summer. It was the first thing that I noticed on being here. As to those demands, last night they were able to meet with corporate. So several of those demands were either agreed to, some of them were met meaning they began doing some of the work, and the others they gave them a few weeks for completion. Examples would be like workable washers and dryers, they told them they'd have those by July 1. More immediately would be the trash chutes, they started some of their work yesterday. And then first and foremost, they told them that they expected to have AC on today, tomorrow at the latest. There were also a couple of demands that they had that were not met at this point. We demanded management change in the building. We didn't have management change. However, they did fire the service coordinator that the one individual in the building that was working with residents, working with the tenants, and providing some help over the past couple of days. She was fired today. They also asked for rent forgiveness.
Fr. Justin: Wait, why was she fired? Right? So wait, we're gonna go on but what was the deal? Because I know from watching your videos that there were a couple of people who were kind of taking down signs and trying to put down the protest or at least being told to do so by management. But you’re saying that there was actually somebody who was on staff who was a coordinator that was like an advocate and that person got fired?
Murray: Yeah, so maintenance workers, there's been at least two that I've noticed since I've been here for the past three days. The maintenance workers were taking down signs and informed me that they were instructed by management to do so. Something to the effect that it was blocking visibility in, in and out of the building, so they told them to take the signs down off the window, which, you know, we're okay with it. We just put the signs outside. But there was a service coordinator, Denise Williams, that the tenants really liked. She was working with them, helping them as best she could to resolve some of the issues, She even began making some other calls on their behalf to corporate. She was let go today. Today they walked her out about 30 minutes ago. She was asked to leave the premises with all of her things. There was a reason given to her and she informed the residents and me as well. They ran to my car, did not hear in the car on another call, and they said Denise is being fired. I ran to the door as she was leaving and I asked what happened. She said they told me they were letting me go essentially for helping the tenants. And so that's from her. I didn't get a chance to talk to management about it, obviously. They don't want to talk to me at this point. And so as you can expect, that was a huge blow to the morale of the tenants who have been protesting much longer than the three days I've been here.
Fr. Justin: How long has this been going on? I mean, because you were just driving by and somebody flagged you down, but how long have the residents been out there?
Murray: So that had been their first day outside. The residents have been making calls to the Health Department and then making calls to, according to some of the residents, to the news media. So there have been a number of attempts to reach out to community members to let them know what was going on. But Monday was the first day they protested publicly with signs outside. So it's quite interesting that the first day they stepped out happened to be the day I'm driving down the street.
Fr. Justin: And what were you thinking? You work at Kauffman. You work in education, first of all. Is housing and tenants rights, like something you work on all the time, or were you just driving by and stopped?
Murray: No, no, not at all. Not at all. I was driving by and happened to stop. I was driving by on accident, in fact, expecting to hit the highway. I was bike riding on Cliff Drive, grabbed coffee at the corner, and was headed back home. No, this is definitely not in my wheelhouse at all. When someone flagged you down especially with a sign that says “we don't have air” and I knew from my bike ride, it was almost 90 degrees already that day. After pulling over and listening to the stories of residents, I didn't know what I could do or know what was possible, but I knew I had to do something.
Fr. Justin: I think that's an incredible example. This podcast, Murray, is all about trying to inspire everyone, but especially people who are wanting to make a social impact in every different sector. Trying to inspire them and lift up the possibility that we all can be social leaders. We just have to begin somewhere. I think you're giving a super tangible example. You might see something on the news, you might see protests, and you might kind of go to bed at night scratching your head and saying, “I don't know what to do, what do I do?”, but so often, it's right in front of you. You're driving down the road going to the highway, you see a sign. You had a choice. Do I pass by? Not to get too biblical, although I am one that’s wearing the collar but it feels like the story of the Good Samaritan, exactly like that moment. Am I gonna pass by this person who's beaten down on the side of the road like the others? Or am I going to be the one to stop? And you stopped. And I think that that's really, really inspiring for all of us who want to do something but don't know where to begin. You begin by listening and looking. I want to ask you a question. We had Colleen Hernandez on a couple of episodes ago, just a week or two ago to talk about kind of the larger issue of tenants rights, to talk about poverty and COVID and affordable housing and we kind of stayed at a bigger systemic level. And you're bringing this like very much to the tangible to the nitty gritty, but what system is failing here? Just from your perspective? I know you're not a housing expert. What is failing here?
Murray: I try not to be critical. After spending the last couple of days here, I think every system is really failing these folks here. I mean, if you think about it, several of the tenants here have a social worker, case workers come in and out of this building regularly. So I'm trying to wrap my mind around how you can come in and out of this building, not see the same things that I saw the first day I walked in here on Monday. When you've had the health department, and I think they said they had seven or eight complaints, and the health department had come in on seven or eight occasions since January and resolved the issues that they came out for. But it only takes looking down the hall in the opposite direction to see the other hundred issues in this place. And so I think this is a management company that's obviously dropped the ball and completely neglected residents, but they don't own the building. So I just think there's so many systems that failed these residents here. And then I think part of it is that most communities have invisible residents. And I think that's the case here. Our city's doing a lot in terms of revitalization. We look at all the shiny new toys we have. This building isn’t new. I grew up on 21st Street. This building has been on this corner longer than I've been alive. And so we've seen it as community members as well. And I ask myself how many times have I driven past this building and not stopped in?
Fr. Justin: Well, what keeps us from stopping though? Are we afraid? Are we callous? I have to believe most of us with exceptions, but most of us aren't callous to it. We want to do something, but what keeps us from stopping or from seeing or addressing the uncomfortable?
Murray: I actually agree with you. I actually think most of us are not callous. I think it's just because we may not have the answer or we think the issue or the challenge in front of us is insurmountable. To be honest with you, when I walked in there, and I saw all the challenges facing this place, even somebody like me that works at the Kauffman Foundation, knows people across the city, I had no idea if I'd be able to do anything to help here.
Fr. Justin: What thought was crossing your mind? What was that fork in the road playing out in your mind?
Murray: I sat in my car before I made the Facebook post and asked myself, “okay, after you do this, even if other folks respond immediately, it's now on you to do something to follow up.” I think that was the fear. If I post this, I send it out, no one else responds, I still have to do something because I've seen it. And I understand that most people probably come to that place and I see why that can be paralyzing. Again there was a question. After you look into the eyes of the residents here that's telling you their problems, showing you what they're dealing with on a day to day then, you have to make a decision: Do you walk away with that and keep quiet? Or do you do something about it?
Fr. Justin: What tipped you over the edge? What did you do? What did you think before you hit that send button on the post on Facebook? How did you make that decision? Because I'll be honest, a lot of us come to that crossroad. I'm driving to the red light and I see the guy who needs money or I see the ad on TV or I see the protest. And then we still don't do something. What did you do to kind of push yourself to that next step? Because you didn't have to.
Murray: I look back at the work we do every day in education, right? So although this is definitely not my bailiwick here. I work in education every day and I see the challenges there. And I always talk to people about being advocates and those who have agency, those who have social capital, helping to amplify the voices of those that are not being heard, right? I don't believe that there are people that are voiceless, I just think they're either people that aren't being heard for whatever reason or people are not listening. So I ask myself how can I do that in one area of my life? How can I be critical of people who don't stand up and do that in the areas that I work in and the places that I see and I care about every day? It’s the same thing here. How can I walk away after seeing this and not do anything about it? So I made the decision for myself that even if I didn't get the response that I received on Facebook, even if the organizations didn’t come out and provide the assistance that they needed, even if it meant I sit in my car and I call Millennia myself all day, all night. I think that's what it was for me. It didn't matter at that point if anyone else helped, I made the decision at that point in time that I was going to do what I had to do, even if that meant I had to be here, which I am and which I have been until they get air.
Fr. Justin: For which I'm very thankful. I know the residents are thankful. But I'm thankful that you're lifting up that example of somebody who's not even working in the housing sector just driving by and you made the decision, because it's important. For those of you who are watching live right now, there's a comment from Bonnie Johnston, who said, “I think people are self involved and fearful to step up into the unknown.” You talked about fear. Talk about the unknown. Talk about why would that feel like a place that's unknown?
Murray: Well, if we're talking about education, I could talk circles around that all day. That's what I do. We talk about philanthropy, we could talk about that all day. You talk about housing, I'm a fish out of water. I don't know much about this. Then there's the other fear. You understand this issue intersects with a lot of the same spaces that I do intersect with on a day to day. So then there was that fear, right? Maybe someone might be upset about us calling this out, someone that I need in my area of work, somebody that I have to engage with on a day to day. Maybe contacting the health department and having them come down there and highlighting that might not go over well. Those are those points where you second guess. You start to think “how can this impact me in the work I do every day?” and so I had that. I had no idea what posting that on Facebook would do, whether or not people respond and step up here or what they can do in my everyday life.
Fr. Justin: You're a perfect example of a social leader. Because I don't think social leaders wait for the perfect platform in order to respond, you respond to what's right in front of you, what comes in front of you, because that person in front of you, as a living icon, they're worthy of profound and authentic veneration, respect, and dignity. And so there's this idea of whatever comes in front of you is the providence of what's been put in front of you to deal with. And so we sit around waiting for the perfect platform. I don't think we're going to do anything. I really appreciate, also, that you brought out this important nuance. You said that there might be some people that would be kind of ticked if I called on this and there are people that I kind of need for my professional life. Talk more about that. That's difficult for a lot. Let's think about business owners who are trying to decide whether or not to post a hashtag BLM or like to stand up at a protest. They're making that exact calculation. How did you get to that point and then step over the line when you thought about those donors or those business folks?
Murray: I think it was easy because, at least for me, I kept what was most important. I think that's the residents. I do understand and I did understand at the time and had to deal with the fact that, I mean, someone lost their job as a result of this, right? Denise Williams lost their job today. And also there was also the concern that if other individuals, whether it be the health department or some other officials walked into this facility, saw the way this building has been neglected and these residents have been treated, they’d close this facility down. Then people are homeless as a result of you bringing this out. Where do they go if that happens? There's a concern because there's 120 units in here, but the reality is there's about 50 to 60 residents that have been very active and very vocal. What happens if there's some retaliation and they get fired? Like all of these things come to mind. I get to go home after this. When this is over, I get to go back home. I don't worry about me being evicted as a result of speaking out. I do worry about some of the people that may or may not be impacted that intersect my world in some way, shape, or form, but I don't worry about being evicted as a result of this. I don't worry about the retaliation that way. I did worry about me speaking up meant for me on a variety of different levels.
Fr. Justin: Well, I'm glad the residents were speaking up for weeks and I'm glad you chose to join them and add your voice too. I think when we think about conversations around privilege and access and power, you're demonstrating the exact thing. When we know that we've got something, some access, some privilege, some voice, some power, it may not be the same as somebody else's, but use what you've got. Paint with the colors on your palette. Let me ask you another question. You're a very humble man, I've known you in your life. You're not the guy that's going to take to Facebook all the time. I'm just telling you that, if you don't know Murray, he's not that guy. But you're a very strong leader. How do you keep the focus on the people and not on yourself while you're also raising up this issue as a social leader? How do you do that?
Murray: I think that's very important if you do any type of social justice work. I think it’s important to recognize that this is their fight, the residents. This is their fight. This was their protest, not mine. When the news media rolled up several times, it was very important for us to have tenants out front. This is about amplifying their voice, not being a voice for anyone, amplifying the voices that were already there. In fact, if this conversation today not been about leadership, if it was specifically about this, I wouldn't have wanted to do this today.
Fr. Justin: I remember we were just talking to Papi right before we came on. We were actually trying to see if we could get him somehow on here with you so he could be the one to speak kind of the issues but he didn't want to be on the internet, which is good and I respect that.
Murray: It's important to understand that this is their fight. The same thing should be said about the support that was received. There's been a number of news reports that talk about Saturday Night Live star that donated money. But the reality of the situation is the reason why we were able to supply fans to every resident here had nothing to do with that. This was community members who jumped at the opportunity to support this work here. It was local restaurant owners who were willing to help offset some of the costs for us to be able to provide meals. Pizza Hut split costs for dinner last night. And so, although it's not as bright and shiny as saying, “get a Hollywood star from Kansas City that donated” it's more important to know that this was community support and the community was supporting the residents. And therefore, it wasn't a Hollywood star supporting Murray in his fight.
Fr. Justin: Well, I know the fight isn't over. I know from just talking to you today before we came on that there's still things that haven't been met. There's still needs that are essential you were about to get to those earlier on in the show. What's left to be done and how can people help?
Murray: So what's left to be done is a number of things. More importantly, getting the air on today, tomorrow at the latest is what they said. If they don't, as a community, we really need to rally around this facility and make sure that it happens. That’s first and foremost. A second thing is they don't have work in washers and dryers. They've agreed to have that done by July 1. There's mold on a lot of the floors, there's trash. I think we need, as a community, to make sure we continue to wrap our arms around Gabriel Towers even after the AC is flicked on. We need to continue to check in. I posted a list of demands and the agreements and the things still outstanding on Facebook. I'll share that with you again if you want to blast it out. And we need to continue to check in and make sure that that happens. And if you want to provide support now that they have unionized, you can reach out to KC Tenants. And if you do happen to come down to the Towers, ask for Papi, James Stone. He's the president of the tenants union and that man is an angel. But he's definitely working to get this done and he's fighting.
Fr. Justin: The thing that really strikes me, especially since we're broadcasting this within really just days of the murder of George Floyd and others, is that the Gabriel Towers Apartments is really just one example of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of units and there is a real need not only for the Gabriel Towers, but there's a real need for us as communities really all across the United States, in fact, across this globe, to really band together. There's that old story of Stone Soup that everybody puts in the pot what they have and then by the end of the time, even though the pot started empty, there's enough for everybody. What you're doing down there is really chipping in what you have. And I love to hear the story of all these different ones, but especially those who don't really have a name or a big corporate name, that have chipped in what they can one fan, $1, whatever it is, that kind of donate-what-you can model is something obviously that we're really passionate about at Reconciliation Services. So thank you. Thank you for being willing to come on and share it. Thank you for stopping the other day. Thank you for lifting up the powerful voices of those in the community who are just trying to have air conditioning like most of the rest of us. I think it's a pretty simple thing. In today's day and age and especially for older adults, it's a pretty essential thing. You hear about it every single summer about older adults who die alone in their homes of heat exhaustion. So thank you for being willing to stop, Murray.
Murray: Thank you for having me.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. All right, hang with me for just a minute. We'll be right back. Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know that again, if you want to help, you can go down to the apartment building, you can go on Facebook. A couple of people will be sharing out the address, as well. I know of one organization, KC Tenants, that's doing a good job of lifting up the voices of the residents there. I'm sure there are lots of other people that are down there working too. I don't actually know all of the names, but this is the time to act. So if you aren't here in Kansas City, look somewhere in your city. There's a Gabriel Tower Apartments somewhere in your community. There's a Papi who's in a wheelchair making signs by hand and has a voice and you have something to lend and then together the two of you can really get something done. And so that's what social leadership is all about. You don't have to be a nonprofit leader. You don't have to be a pastor. You don't have to be a philanthropist or independently wealthy. Sometimes you might just be a guy in a car driving by and you stop for a minute and you never know what will happen. So, again, I want to thank Murray Woodard, our really special guest today. Thanks especially the residents of the Gabriel Tower Apartments for your endurance and your witness. And for everyone here, if you've enjoyed this podcast, please do me a favor. First of all, thank you for listening today. But please follow the podcast on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And it would really help us if you'd share the show with more people so that we can lift up the voices of those in the community and especially those social leaders who are trying to make a difference. You can also tune in to watch the show live almost every Tuesday around 12:30pm central usually. If you want to go further and learn to lead with greater social impact, I want to encourage you to check out TheSocialLeader.org. Pretty soon we're going to be launching an e-course called The Social Leader Essentials. It's a great way to just begin the process of learning how to do what Murray did and and learn some of the fundamentals and the basics of how you can embrace social leadership in addition to whatever else you're doing in your life. So once again, thanks for joining us here. This show is sponsored by Reconciliation Services. I look forward to talking with you next time on The Social Leader podcast.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Kansas City, Missouri, Third District Councilwoman Melissa Robinson. They discuss the intersection of place, policy, and people and unpack Councilwoman Robinson's "Righteous Agenda", the importance of embedding reconciliation into our systems and structures, and the role of leaders to work for change.
EPISODE 12 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to The Social Leader podcast, episode number 12, where our goal is to help you learn to lead with greater social impact. I'm Father Justin Mathews. Hey, real quick before we begin today's episode, I want to let you know that this podcast is presented by Reconciliation Services, which is a nonprofit social venture based in Kansas City, working to cultivate a community that is seeking racial and economic reconciliation so that we can reveal the strength of all. You can find out more about our programs and even support our work at rs3101.org. Also today's show is sponsored by Thelma’s Kitchen, Kansas City's first donate-what-you-can restaurant, open for lunch again, hopefully, starting in July. Okay, let's jump into episode number 12!
Fr. Justin: Welcome back. I am so excited to have my guest today. She's a longtime friend and somebody that I really admire in the community. My guest today is Councilwoman Melissa Robinson. Welcome, Melissa.
Councilwoman Melissa Robinson: Thank you for having me. Hello.
Fr. Justin: Hello. Well, I want to make sure people know who you are. You began your social service career at the Ad Hoc Group Against Crime, where you served as the Director of Crisis Intervention and you assisted families in navigating the region's social service and criminal justice system. You went on and became the President of the Black Healthcare Coalition and you've been leading efforts for years to address the social determinants of health in our community. You have spent time in so many different organizations and on so many different boards. I couldn't begin to name them all, but just a few. You've received leadership awards from a variety of different institutions and organizations including the Environmental Protection Agency, Kansas City Missouri chapter of the NAACP, Southern Christian Leadership Conference, just to name a few. I'm sure I missed a bunch. But you were also named in Kansas City’s 40 Under 40 by Ingram's magazine. You formerly served as a member of the Public Improvement Advisory Council with the city, the Health Care Foundation of Greater Kansas City Community Advisory Committee, and you were also the former Board President of the Kansas City Public Schools. Of course, not the least of which, now you serve as Councilwoman in the third district for Kansas City, Missouri. So again, Melissa, thank you so much, and welcome to The Social Leader podcast.
Melissa: Well, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to share and to be with you always and to have conversation.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. Welcome! Well, I want to dive right into our conversation and really get into what we want to talk about today. So first and foremost, on this podcast we're really trying to learn how to be social leaders, meaning how do we begin as leaders, as community members, no matter who we are, in every sector, to begin to lead with greater social impact. So I would love for you just to share with our listeners a little bit about how you got on this trajectory of being a social leader, how you got to the place where you could, as you said in a recent speech, connect the dots and really lead people for social change. Where did that begin for you?
Melissa: Thank you so much for the question and the opportunity to just share my story, my personal story in that I grew up here in Kansas City and I experienced the throes of adolescence and had challenges. My father actually was looking for opportunities for myself and my brother to connect in ways that will help us to advance our academics and he came up on the Ad Hoc Group Against Crime. I was a client of the Ad Hoc Group Against Crime with their Runaway Prevention Intervention program and as I graduated from high school, many of my friends were getting retail jobs and looking for places they could go out of town to go to college and I really wanted to be able to give back to the community that so much gave back to me. And I wanted to also look at how do I provide a foundation for my career in a way that is embedded in social service? And so that led me to reaching out to Mr. Alvin Brooks, he was then the President of the Ad Hoc Group Against Crime and I asked him for a job. He didn't really know me that well, I participated in programming and things of that nature for a couple of years. And he said, “well, if you could write a grant…” And you know this, being an Executive Director, when you bring on staff, it's like, “where am I going to find the dollars?” So he said, “Well, if you could write a grant to help fund the position, then we might have a place for you.” And that was when the Kauffman Foundation had a Youth Advisory Board and they had these very small grants, not nearly enough to be able to fund the position. But I wrote that grant with my home ec teacher at North Kansas City High School, and it was funded and the rest is history. But always thinking about what are things that you can do that are very immediate right in front of your eyes in which you could step in to provide some leadership for. At the time the Ad Hoc Group Against Crime didn't have a runaway program and because I was a product of that program, I wanted to add some innovation to it from a real perspective, as from the client perspective, and so I did that. I served as the Coordinator of the Runaway Prevention Intervention Program, helping to get to what were some of the things that were happening me as a young person graduating from high school, having conversations with parents about when this started out when they were eight or nine and not providing structure for them, and now they're 14 and 15, and you don't have that physical ability to restrain them. The structure that wasn't provided is providing this area of chaos. And so how do you then go back and rebuild those structures with now kids that are 14, 15, and 16. And so I really immensely enjoyed that work. And then just evolved from there, working with homicide victims, and then ended up the Black Healthcare Coalition. And so I don't want to just kind of take up so much time talking about story after story, but there were some really critical pivotal points. I was a part of the Urban League of Greater Kansas City. They had a Leadership Development Institute that was fabulous and that's where I learned that everyone has a leadership lane. And so you just have to be able to walk into that leadership lane. Whether you are the janitor of a company, an accountant, wherever you are on that spectrum, you have a voice in which you can lead and you can influence.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely, you hit the nail on the head for what we focus on with The Social Leader podcast. And it's that idea that everybody no matter who you are, what sector you're in, what your job is. You can be a social leader, it just takes a lot of intention, it takes moving away from sort of charitable intentions to integrated priorities, and really getting serious about making your leadership count. And I love that you're connecting the dots for us. So I'd like to ask you though, connect one or two of those stories. What did you see or what did you hear when you were working with those homicide victims or with those parents of runaway kids, or you were doing that education work? What did you see or hear that really set the trajectory for you to become the leader that you are today?
Melissa: Well, place matters, right? And I think that that's one of the biggest things that I learned. For example, remembering my time at De La Salle High School at the time, and talking to the young people about taking them out of experiences and building up their ability, their resilience, their thoughts in their self esteem about what they could achieve, and showing them and providing that exposure. But then having those conversations with the young people about, “okay, I'm doing this while I'm with you, you're teaching us how to do these things. But there's somewhere that I have to go back to. And let me tell you about where that place is.” And so for me, it's how do we rebuild communities so that when young people do have opportunities, when they're coming back to those places and spaces, that they're ones that give life and they're ones that will continue to allow young people to blossom. We could provide all of the opportunity in the world, but if we're not getting to the root of what's happening that is causing our communities to be desolate and in despair, then we're not getting to the root of the matter. So that kind of shifting. And then even with the Black Healthcare Coalition, we were working a lot on the frontlines of being a voice to a lot of the safety net hospitals and talking to them about how do we best achieve the best health outcomes. But until we went and talked to the neighborhoods and the individuals that lived in communities that are experiencing these health disparities, what they wanted wasn't about a positive response from their doctor or positive interaction, they wanted education for their children, and they wanted sidewalks and streets and things of that nature. And so that's how I got into public policy, through the Black Healthcare Coalition and saying, “Okay, if we're going to be here another 10 years, we've been around for at that time 20 years, what's going to be different?” And it all centers around what types of policies were able to dismantle and rebuild.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you're really talking about that intersectionality of our life. I really believe that, we really live our life at the intersection between place, policy, and people. And in my experience, you’ve got to have all three of those in order to have vibrant life. You’ve got to have that intersectionality, right? So when I see policy being made, like if we're looking at some of the police policy, we're looking at some of the development policies, if we're looking at some of the things that are in the news right now, you often get solutions that are proposed where you've got the intersection between place and policy, but you leave out people and the voice of the people or you'll have the voice of the people in the right place, but you're missing the policy and what we've got to get to, and I think that you've spoken about this so well recently, is that intersectionality. So I really want to get to what you've called your righteous agenda. But before we get into the details of that, you're proposing as a city council member, this idea of a righteous agenda, but as a social leader, how do you begin? Where did you begin in formulating a comprehensive and an intersectional plan that brings together place, people, and policy? Where does that start for you as a leader?
Melissa: Really a place of listing and connecting to people. You cannot just jump into the places where people are and begin to define them, you cannot just jump into policy, but really looking at the connection to people. We have an Infant Mortality Program at the Black Healthcare Coalition, and every mother, no matter what their socioeconomic status is, no matter what their academic achievement levels are, we all want the same things for our children. And so connecting to the people, and what it is that people have for their own aspirations, and how do I insert myself into making that happen? It might not be the city council person or the school board member, it might be the activist that's out there in the community that is continuing to raise that protest, or it might be being a coordinator of a program or it might be me really delving down into a volunteer role in which is not showing up but I'm shifting and creating change so that those aspirations become a reality. So for me, it really started with the connections to the people and being able to to galvanize that into a righteous voice.
Fr. Justin: I appreciate what you're saying though, that you don't wake up as a social leader, and have this birth of all the ideas at once. What I'm hearing you say is that it's a process of continual activity over the course of a lifetime, over the course of a lot of listening that really leads you into being able to be in a place to speak confidently about a righteous agenda. Let's break that down. First of all, I love that phrase righteous agenda, because it speaks to me on so many different levels. But tell me about your righteous agenda. And in particular, as a councilwoman, educate us about what the role of the city is in making change.
Melissa: I'm so glad that you asked that. Because another piece in order to do this work, you have to understand processes and you have to understand how to actually technically get things done. And that's different from me being an activist, someone that drove me to this place, right? And now me being a governor of deciding on who gets what and when. So it does take time and that's kind of a drawback of the term limits for city council. We are allocating resources, we're developing policies that help to govern people's lives on a very intimate and local level. It takes time to be able to understand how to do some of those things. And so when you think about the third district in which we have the highest unemployment rates, we have the oldest housing stock, we have all of these issues as it relates to poverty, and we also are segregated in that we have the most Black and brown people that are residents of the third district. And so when you look at the leadership that we've had, it hasn't been consistently each council member being able to fulfill their eight years in their term and what that means is when you don't be able to do that, it's it's you have to start all over from ground zero. So that's one of the challenges. But when you think about, again, developing that righteous agenda, it takes time. I've been in office, I guess, for eight or nine months now, but understanding what that process is in order to get these policies passed. And so what are we looking at? We're looking at, yes, we know that black lives matter, and we know that we have to be able to demonstrate that we have policies in place that help to address the undercurrents of what is actually happening locally and nationally when we think about African Americans, descendants of slaves in America, and so looking at the lanes that the city council has to be able to operate in that I was able to introduce and start to work on some what I believe are righteous policies. I don't know if you want me to go into one or two?
Fr. Justin: Well, let’s name a few of them, because you've talked about number one, there are seven righteous policies or a righteous agenda policy items. But one of them is you've talked about progressive action to bring police control locally. Talk to us about that, because there are listeners from all over the world and all over the interwebs. What you need to know if you're listening and you’re not in Kansas City, and especially if you are in Kansas City, is that Kansas City doesn't have control over its police department locally, that's done in Jefferson City, Missouri. And that's a whole history based in Pendergast and big corruption of yesteryear. But why is that important now? Why did that make number one on your righteous agenda?
Melissa: Sure. So we were responding to, obviously, the civil unrest that's happening, but I started this process before the current civil unrest as it relates to local control. We introduced this many, many, many months ago and we were able to get the council to agree to begin to look at, is now the right time for local control? But now with all that's happened, we have to progressively look at, what are we doing in order to gain local control of our police department? And so our current police board has control from our Board of Police Commissioners. They're all appointed by the governor. And so when people say, “well, you do have local control, we looked up the resident addresses for the individuals that are on the Board of Police Commissioners!”, not everyone has a voice. And so you have to think about taxation without representation, if you will. And then at the same time, I was debating the issue several months ago regarding local control with some folks that have been on the Board of Police Commissioners and I asked them, “how many times have you heard from the governor regarding policing matters?” One person had been on the board for over 10 years and they had talked to the governor or a representative from Jeff City about policing matters two times. Two times!
Fr. Justin: This goes back to your point earlier, if we don't have the voice of the people in the right place, from the right place, and shape the policies that affect the people in the place, then we really missed the mark. And I think that’s a very important thing that you're advancing. I want to talk about the second righteous agenda item because this one is super interesting to me. You said that you want to put forward that there should be an Office of Reconciliation that would actually review policies and things that are happening in the city. Melissa, when I went to Vancouver, a couple of years ago, I was able to actually sit and visit with their city director or minister, whatever he was called. And he was in charge of a city wide or regional Office of Reconciliation that was bringing forth issues and reviewing things. What is that? How would it manifest itself locally? And what would be the role of this Office of Reconciliation in Kansas City?
Melissa: So in 1968 we had a commission that was developed to address recommendations regarding the civil unrest there. The challenge is oftentimes when you have these emergent events that come up, you put together a task force, you put together some commission, they come up with some recommendations, it goes on the shelf, it goes away. This office has to be embedded in the way that city council in the city of Kansas City does its work and what this office would be responsible for is looking at every policy before it's voted on by the City Council to talk about, is it equitable? What are some of the undercurrents of how it's going to impact everyone in our city? And then we have to have ongoing reconciliation as it relates to bringing this city to a place in which everyone is valued. And we can begin to reflect on what has happened in the past, we can begin to innovate and think about, what is it that we're going to do differently? We have to stretch ourselves in saying that, “hey, this is going to be uncomfortable” and we have to elevate. And so I didn't make that reconciliation model up, I think it was made maybe in Alaska, but they have this rise model for reconciliation. But it needs to be embedded in everything we do at City Council, and not just this one-off task force that will someday go away.
Fr. Justin: Well, you took an awesome first step, I think, in your first weeks when you were on city council putting forth a resolution that was adopted that had to do with structural racism and mental health. Tell us tell us about what that was and how that would dovetail with this Office of Reconciliation that you're proposing.
Melissa: Well, again, this goes back to leading in your lane, where you are. When I first got on the council, and again I still knew very little, but I thought to myself, what could I do to begin to start this conversation about racism? Yes, I do have all of these ideas, all of these policies that we talked about on the campaign trail, but how do I begin to lay the foundation so that there's some common understanding? And in that vein, I began to do research. The city of Milwaukee did something around racism as a public health crisis. And I just started from there and really began to dig into what that meant in Kansas City and introduced the resolution around racism as, again, a foundational point of, this is what I'm here to do. This is my main objective of being on the city council, how do we bring this reconciliation back in the community so that everyone is seen, they have value, and they have worth?
Fr. Justin: Obviously, I'm somebody who's a huge believer in what you're putting forward. Our whole organization is called Reconciliation Services and I think you're making another really good point for social leaders and people wanting to learn to really advance their social impact. You have to pick something, right? You’ve got to pick something that you're going to stand for and then get educated. We had a wonderful conversation a couple episodes back with Gwendolyn Grant of the Urban League, you used to work at the Urban League. Gwen really unpacked like three or four things that you needed to do in order to become a social leader, and one of them, just like you said, you got to pick something. You’ve got to focus. And right now, I think there's a lot of people that are waking up to the reality that race, structural racism, the issues around the need for reconciliation are social determinants of health and they're protesting. Now, I want to talk a little bit about protests though, because I think that there's a lot of different versions of protests. I'm somebody that says what I've dedicated my life to is my protest, but there’s also a role for physical protest. You were on the steps the other day at City Hall and gave an impassioned speech and you've participated in protests. Let's talk about protests. After the protests are done at City Hall, what do we need to do if we want to be social leaders to actually live a life of protest? What would that mean? What would that look like?
Fr. Justin: What you're what you're really talking about, I think, is that we have to make it count. We have to live a life. I think when people hear the word protest, some people get fired up in a good way, some people get fired up in a negative way. And I guess that probably has to do with your lived experience. But I think what I'm asking you to speak about is really that concept of protest that is a way of life, not about necessarily aggression or signs or chanting certain slogans, but when all of that is done, which is important, by the way, and I'm a believer in that, but when all of that is died out, what are we doing day to day to make a difference? And Melissa, I think a lot of people, that's where they start to lose hope. I'm old enough to remember back to Rodney King, I'm old enough to remember back when there were protests in LA, I remember when all of that happened. I remember there was great desire and hope for change. And now here we are all of these years later, what's changed? What's changed since those protests? Here we are in this protest now, with Breonna Taylor, with George Floyd, all these situations. How do we actually live a life of protest such that things might change?
Melissa: One of the things is we always say “hashtag stay woke.” And so one of the things is not being lulled back into a place of complacency, but ensuring that we are really aware of what's happening. And we are inserting ourselves from an intentional place to make sure that we're bringing about a change. Not episodic, but again, it's a discipline, right? And so when you think about disciplining yourself and when we teach our children discipline about every day you gotta get up, and you got to make your bed, and then they're disciplined to do that over time and throughout their lives. And so that's the same thing you have to start out with. You being a social leader and making protests a part of who you are is, how are you building that muscle and starting small to say, it might just be that I'm going to come to Thelma’s Kitchen every Friday at 10am and talk to people and begin to reflect on, how is it that I can make things better for the individuals that I'm in relationship with, for the individuals that are in my community? But making sure that it's consistent, it’s not episodic, it's not something that you can get in the mundaneness of, “Oh, I joined this group and we meet every month.” What are you doing to make sure that you're raising your voice and you're making a change?
Fr. Justin: I think you're right. It's like anything. There's a lot of different ways of protesting. I think you can be the person who's on City Council and advocating, like you are. You can be the person that's at the protest holding a sign. You could also be the quiet introvert who doesn't feel like being in any of those places, but who works very hard to educate herself about the issues and to contribute according to her strength or his strength. Now, there's a quote that I love and I want to bring in here that relates to what we're talking about. It's Barbara Jordan, who said, “What the people want is very simple - they want an America as good as its promise.” What does that mean to you in light of what we're talking about?
Melissa: Well, one, that there is hope, right? There is promise, there is a structure in place that we can look to, and it's all about that reconciliation to get there. What we want is thinking about how do we make America whole? And that wholeness begins with the relationships that we have for our fellow man, our fellow woman, our brother, our sister, our neighbor. And so what we want, as an African American, as a descendant of slaves, what we want, what I want is that same opportunity, the same promise when we think about what America stands for, and what America is and what America can be for everyone.
Fr. Justin: I think that gets lost on people. I really do. I think people get lost in all of the issues and all of the politics and all of the rhetoric. For goodness sake, all we're talking about, though, is that as Americans don't we all want the same thing? I've got three kids and I want them all to have the same opportunities. And when we look across our neighborhood, sure, we may not all have exactly the same stuff or exactly the same experience, but we want everybody to have the opportunity. We want everybody to be able to live into that so-called American dream that is so elusive, and really, I think you and I would agree, go further than that. The American dream has been engineered to be impossible for some people in many cases. Talk to me about that? Let's dive in a little bit on structural racism. Talk about the people in your district. Why is it hard? What are the barriers? What are the systems in place that make it hard for them to achieve that same dream that you're talking about for America?
Melissa: Absolutely. One of the things on my righteous agenda has to do with our incentive process for corporate America. In that we have to look at our educational system that we have and how we are funding and defunding our educational system by giving tax incentives to the wealthy to do development. Many of these developers, all of these developers that I'm aware of, refuse to develop east of Troost. And so why will we take money away from children, our children, to give to developers, when they refuse to develop the lives of the people that they are taking the money away from?
Fr. Justin: Let’s get specific, third district, there are hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars being dumped into developing on Troost. There's a La Quinta hotel now at 24th and Troost. I'm sitting at the corner of 31st and Troost, right smack dab in the middle of what used to be the Porter slave plantation. I'm a stone's throw from where the big house was 200 years ago or 1831. And I am now engulfed in a $70 million development. And now look, I don't think all development is bad, but if we aren't working first to prioritize the people, all the progress that we make is for nothing, right? We're just moving people.
Melissa: And all I'm saying is we want to incentivize development in the city of Kansas City, but let's not do it at the expense of children and their future, because what that is is racism.
Fr. Justin: Ok, unpack that.
Melissa: I wanted to put a pause there, because I wanted that to sink in for people.
Fr. Justin: Say it again. Let's say it again.
Melissa: So what that is when you incentivize development and take away funding from children in districts that are predominantly Black and brown, that's racism. And so, if I have to unpack it, I can break it down. But the reality of it is that we are taking funding property taxes from districts in which academic achievement is not being obtained. And it's not all about money. It's not all about dollars and cents. However, if we can adequately resource our educational centers when you look at Lincoln, if you will. Lincoln High School is one of the number one high schools in the state of Missouri, they are heavily resourced. One of the reasons why we don't have many more Lincoln's is because of the resources that we need. When you think about crime and violence in the third district and the intersections between mental health and crime and violence, guess what? When we take those real tax dollars, property taxes away from our schools, we're also taking it away from our mental health fund. So where is the balance? That's all I'm saying. It's not anti-development, anti-developer. At some point, we have to have a balance in which we everyone has what they need to be successful. The developer, the children.
Fr. Justin: We have to work hard. I hear you saying, to really have all ships rise together, which isn't going to happen just by market forces, at least not the way that I see it. I mean, the market is really an amoral thing. It takes moral men and women to move the market in the moral direction, but so often, I think, we're just allowing the market to run where it's going to go, because that's kind of the American way. We don't want to have too much legislation or restriction. But there are times when I think we do need to stop and agree as a community and say, look, these kids are important, their education is important, not just because of who they are, which should be enough, but if we have to speak about the return on investment, look, this is a superior growth model for the region, when you're gonna have people, right?
Melissa: And the thing that you have to think about is, if we let the market decide, we wouldn't be taking any money away from our children. Because we would not be incentivizing development, we would allow those developments to go without public subsidy. So we are intervening to give taxes to the wealthy and the rich by taking them away from the poor. That's just point blank and period.
Fr. Justin: You make some really challenging points and I wish we had four hours to unpack all of it but I want to get to a couple of other things. And I'm sure we'll get a lot of feedback in the comments on this and I'm looking forward to that discussion. But you know, as a leader when you're facing the kind of huge challenges like we're talking about now, I think there's always this nagging temptation to just give up, to give in. And if others are listening to the podcast right now, and they're feeling like they're exhausted, they want to give up, they want to give in, what are two or three things that they can do to stay in the fight?
Melissa: Oh, that is definitely a hard question. But always centering yourself back to the reason why you're in this work and relationships are so critical and so important. And going back to the relationships that you have with people, and the why of you doing this work is so critical and important. So just making sure also you're taking care of yourself because definitely it's a hard process in terms of just being able to give all of yourself and oftentimes things don't change as fast as you would like them to change. You have to give yourself grace. I was in a meeting just today and I was like, “Oh my gosh, I really could have done so much better. I could have done things differently.” It's good to have the improvement, but also to give yourself grace as you do this work. But I cannot underscore relationships, relationships, relationships, because those are the individuals that you will be able to go back to and they will be able to refuel you and be able to remind you of your why. The other thing that I would encourage people to do is to start very small, don't try to bite off “oh, I'm going to go down and I'm going to get $100 million from the city government to do X, Y and Z.” But perhaps it's “I want to be able to put some park benches in the park in my neighborhood and how is it that I can convince and encourage and influence to get those $25,000 park benches?” And so just really try to connect with other people. There is an African proverb that if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. And that net of relationships is what's going to be able to carry you through.
Fr. Justin: I really appreciate that quote. It's one of my favorites. And I think it's one of those truths that we always forget, or that we often forget in the moment. We get caught up in something, we get so passionate about it, and then all of a sudden we're out there and we find out like, “Oh wait, I didn't wait long enough to think about people, place, policy, and the people.” We lose that. Well, I always end every podcast, Melissa, with this question and I am really looking forward to hearing what you have to say. What do leaders listening need to do if they want to step up their social leadership, step up their social impact, to become social leaders? What do they need to do?
Melissa: You need to open your eyes. You need to open your eyes and not just see what you think you see going on, but really see the people that are around you, the places that are around you, and what decisions can you help to influence to make things better. We need to be able to see and hear and really think about how to insert ourselves in a way that is going to make a difference. One of the most important things that I learned about leadership and let me just share with you two, they're very quick. One is leadership is about disappointing people at the rates that they can tolerate. And so leadership does not come without disappointment. And so we have to be able to measure the heat along the way. And then finally, my most important lesson is leadership is about doing what's necessary. Because oftentimes we have this connotation in our mind of what needs to happen, but you have to step back and say, okay, what's the necessary thing that I need to do in order to move this thing forward? So you have to be willing to do that reflection and step in there in doing what's necessary.
Fr Justin: Well, Councilwoman Melissa Robinson, thank you for those good words and that powerful send off so that we can all become better social leaders. And thank you again so much for spending ample time with us.
Melissa: Thank you.
Fr. Justin: We look forward to hearing back from you again and please keep up the great work that you're doing, especially if you're here in Kansas City, in the third district where we really need your leadership. Thank you so much. Well, my friends, you have been with us for yet one more episode of The Social Leader podcast. Thanks again for listening today. And if you like today's podcast, I have a big favor to ask of you. Please follow the podcast on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and hit that like button. This is really going to help us to share the show with more people. You can also tune in to watch the show live on Reconciliation Services Facebook page on every Tuesday right around 12:30pm central time. So, lastly, I want to make sure that you know about a new program that's launching soon. If you like today's show, there is a brand new e-course that can help teach you to learn to lead with greater social impact. You can go to TheSocialLeader.org, sign up to find out more about this new e-course called The Social Leader Essentials, launching really soon. Answer a few short questions and one of our team members is going to reach out to you to see if the course is right for you. So thanks again and until next time, thank you again to my guests, Melissa Robinson, and I look forward to being with you next week. Learn to lead with greater social impact. Thanks, everyone.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Collen Hernandez, former CEO of the Homeowners Preservation Foundation and life-long advocate for Affordable Housing. They discuss the affordable housing crisis, the potential tidal-wave of evictions facing poor communities due to the economic hardship brought on by COVID 19, and the necessity of leaders to really listening to people who are actually affected by this issue and so many others.
EPISODE 11 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Well, hello everyone. Welcome to The Social Leader podcast, episode 11. The goal of our podcast is to help you learn to lead with greater social impact. I can't think of a time when that's more important than right now. Hi, I'm Father Justin Matthews, and real quickly before we begin today's episode, I need to acknowledge that we're recording this podcast in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, the murder of George Floyd, and mass protests all over the country. Now more than ever, we need to work together for racial and economic reconciliation, but in meaningful and in tangible ways. This includes protest, which often is needed to bring the uncomfortable truth to the comfortable and to catalyze change when it never seems to come. But we also need education, we need relationships, and these two things are key strategies at the heart of the theory of change at Reconciliation Services and very much a point of these podcasts. We need to understand the lived experience of people whose experience is so far outside of our own that we can't imagine it. And we need to educate ourselves in order to activate ourselves, but meaningfully. As I've always said, we can create a good solution but to the wrong problem, which in the end is just the wrong solution. In order to bring about real solutions to the problems that we face as a nation, especially right now, we have to name the right problem. It needs to be named. So from our perspective at Reconciliation Services the problem is clearly the legacy and the present reality of racial discrimination and economic disinvestment in communities of color and in poor communities in general, all across the country. So if you're looking for ways to engage in this conversation, ways to help make a difference, even if just one heart at a time, you can find out more about Reconciliation Services programs, our volunteer opportunities, and how to support our work at rs3101.org. And lastly, if you like today's show, and if you want to go deeper in your ability to do something about all that we're seeing today, then you need to go to TheSocialLeader.org and sign up to find out more about a new e-course called Social Leader Essentials that we're launching very soon. Okay, now let's jump into our program.
Fr. Justin: All right, in today's show, we're going to focus our attention on the crisis of affordable housing. It's a topic that's critical to understand right now when rent payments are due again, we're recording this at the beginning of June. and there are over 40 million people in the US who are unemployed in the wake of COVID-19. So this week in our podcast, there's the important point that we need to make that no one should be out on the street, especially with the crisis going on, but that's exactly what's going to happen. That's what's happening. And the problem is potentially set to explode nationally. This crisis is also disproportionately affecting our black and our brown brothers and sisters in neighborhoods all across the United States, as well as in working poor tenants’ homes. And the protests that are linked to George Floyd's death that need to happen in order to put a spotlight on police brutality also need to be extrapolated to put a spotlight on the brutality of poverty that many of our neighbors are facing every single day. And this is a problem that obviously long predates the pandemic. And in order to better understand the situation, we're going to need to grasp some of the core and fundamental issues around affordable housing. So my guest on the show today is Colleen Hernandez and I want to welcome Colleen to The Social Leader podcast. Hi, Colleen.
Colleen Hernanez: Hi, Father. Thank you.
Fr. Justin: Thank you so much for making time to be with us today. Let me introduce you a little bit to our audience. Colleen, you were previously the leader of the Homeowners Preservation Foundation, which is a national nonprofit focused on sustainable home ownership and financial stability. And in that role, I'll note that you served at the request of both Presidents Bush and Obama during the housing crisis of the Great Recession. And then prior to that, you were the Executive Director of the Kansas City Neighborhood Alliance for 18 years, where you worked with neighborhood leaders for safe, strong and stable places where people wanted to live and where they were proud to live. And now finally, you run your own consulting firm and you're offering leadership development, which from your perspective, I think is so critical to offer. But also, you're still working for affordable housing development. Did I miss anything?
Colleen: No, you got all the high spots!
Fr. Justin: Well, again, I really appreciate you being here today and I want to dive in and begin our conversation by asking you really what fuels your passion for the issues that you've dedicated your entire life to? Where does that come from?
Colleen: Growing up I lived in the northeast part of Kansas City, Kansas that was deeply segregated. So I went to a school, St. Rosa Lima, which was 7th and Quindaro and black folks went to Our Lady of Lourdes which was at 15th and Quindaro and never the twain shall meet. I mean, it was just crazy. And there was an economic dividing line as well. So from the age of about six on up, I was acutely aware of the differences in the way people were treated. And I grew up during the civil rights era and was aware and leading some efforts on public accommodations in the ‘60s. And then in 1980, I was a single mom supporting two little girls and looking for an affordable place to live, working at City Hall, making slightly above food stamp eligibility, and I couldn't find an affordable place where I felt my kids were safe. And I was terrified, for a year I was terrified looking for a place that I felt okay about living with my kids. So it's been a whole life.
Fr. Justin: Your lived experience is vast. Coming from where you grew up, and then being a single mom, and to be honest with you, the story that you tell about being a single mom who's working but who's barely making enough to kind of keep on going with food stamps and keep your kids in school. What was that like? What was a night like with your kids when you weren't sure if you were going to be able to pay your rent that month?
Colleen: Well, I luckily found an affordable place to live. So I was divorced and lived in the house that we owned together. And to be fair, my ex husband would have provided financial support, but I was too proud to accept it. So I was lucky in that I had that safety net. But living very much on the margin, where we budgeted every nickel. And I’d tell my kids, if you're going to misbehave, don't misbehave on a night when I'm paying the bills because it's a really unpleasant and I'm not going to be nice to you. They’d come home and say, “Oh, Mary has a birthday party this weekend” and I’d think “Where am I going to get $3? I don't have $3 for a birthday present for Mary!” But luckily my kids who are now 45 and 43 tell me they didn't know that we were poor. That's really gratifying. It's like they didn't internalize my stress. And I was glad about that.
Fr. Justin: Well, it sounds like your kids were obviously incredibly well cared for by you, in spite of those difficult times and the circumstances. But you brought that lived experience, then I know just from reading and watching interviews that you've given, you brought all of that passion and that lived experience into your work in affordable housing. So here's the question that I think is on a lot of people's minds. As we look at the lessons that we learned during the Great Recession in the last decade. What did we learn that should be helping us navigate through this current crisis and how should we be applying those lessons today?
Colleen: A couple things occurred to me and this is not global. This is more focused. One of the things that is really important when somebody loses their job is that they get re-employed as soon as possible doing whatever it is they have to do to put food on the table. So a lot of people in the recession, and I think there were 12 million who lost jobs and then many didn't ever get back the original income level, they were waiting for the normal to return. They were waiting for a job that fit what they thought was their status and what we told them at the Homeownership Preservation Foundation was don't wait, don't burn through your savings, this is the new normal and you need you need to grab whatever you can right now and that's what I'm telling people now. Grab whatever you can and worry about your status and your resume and what people will think later but make whatever money you can and if it's in an Amazon distribution center, if it's driving a Amazon Prime truck, whatever, whoever hiring today, take that job and worry about your resume and your status later. So that was one thing we learned. Another thing that we learned in the banking environment, it's a pretty badly broken financial system. When you look for the role that servicers play with homeowners, they're just functionaries. They really don't deal with human beings and they don't have the systems nor is there any accountability in the servicing industry. So what we advise people is to take advantage of homeownership counseling, whether it's pre-purchase counseling or default counseling, but there are people who can help you with tha and there are free services. What I ran for the White House was a hotline, a crisis hotline, and we got 5,000 calls a day, we got all together 7 million calls. And only 2 million people agreed to be counseled. And the others said, “oh, that feels intrusive” or “I don't think it'll do any good” and it did a lot of good.
Fr. Justin: So by counseling, you mean somebody's kind of pre-planning or they're in a crisis and they're trying to figure out how to plan to get out of it?
Colleen: What are their options, right. So they got the letter saying the home was going to be foreclosed. And many people just said, “well, my numbers up, there's nothing I can do.” But then many, 7 million, called us. And we'd walk them through their budget, their realities, their options, and it was intrusive. Here you are on a phone with a stranger telling them, “Well, here's exactly how I spend my money and here's where it's not working.” And very often they had to come clean on stuff that was embarrassing for them. One call I listened to, at the very end, two hours later, the woman said, “Well, I'm paying my car insurance for my 50 year old son and I know I shouldn't be doing that, but I'm ashamed and I'm embarrassed.” But then when we add that to the equation, it's like, okay, that's where now we get the full picture. But the whole housing counseling field, whether it's getting ready to own a home or being in default, it's that and credit counseling. A lot of people, most people, have credit issues. And that is the single factor that keeps them from envisioning themselves as homeowners. But because there's no lasticity on their income and so they're never going to make more money. But what they don't understand is that managing what you have can get you into a much more stable place where your credit score goes up, you can qualify for a home loan, you can make ends meet, you can sleep better at night.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, of course. One of the things that strikes me though about that, and that will help us get into the issue of evictions, is that there are a lot of people for whom they could manage as tightly as they could manage and it's still not going to be enough. So what would you say to somebody who called into the hotline who said “Look, I'm 67 years old, I'm on a fixed income and never worked for more than minimum wage my whole life. I've only got X amount of Social Security. I don't have anything more to manage and the housing prices keep going up. 30% of my income is this and I can't find anything.” What did you say to somebody like that?
Colleen: Well, actually, we didn't counsel those folks, we counsel people who were already owning and up against it. But the simple fact is this is a big problem and the federal government needs to play a big role in helping solve this problem. And in an era when the federal government acknowledged that and played that role, we had far less problems. If you look at just the brutal realities of rents going up and income staying stable or declining, we can't even think about somebody having a full time minimum wage job. That's an oxymoron. There's no point. People are cobbling together this part time job and that QuickTrip job and this Uber job and it's not enough to make ends meet. So when you look at the magnitude of the problem, and you alluded to it in the beginning, we've got 30% of the people in in Kansas City who are rent burdened, who are paying vastly more and many of them paying vastly more for really substandard properties that shouldn't even be allowed to be rented.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, we see about 5,000 people a year here in Kansas City just at Reconciliation Services. 99% of them live below the federal poverty line. And that means within a mile to a mile and a half of us there are thousands upon thousands of families that are struggling to survive and succeed. And the difficulty right now is that with literally 40 plus million people out of work, even people that had side hustles have lost the side hustle, that they're not making it right now. Even if they were making it then they're not making it now.
Colleen: People don’t have money to buy stuff.
Fr. Justin: And there's nothing to buy. And then, let's acknowledge this too, right when we were barely starting to squeak some of the doors open, we have this murder and now we have protests. It's compounding upon compounding. So let's dive in for a minute then on a pressing issue, the issue of evictions. Prior to COVID-19, about 100 tenants, if I read that right, in Jackson County were formally evicted in an average week.
Colleen: 42 per business day.
Fr. Justin: 42 families per business day. So those were families left desperate to rent anything because once they have an eviction on their record, it’s harder.
Colleen: Well, you hit the nail on the head because there is a group of landlords and you're a small landlord, I've been a landlord. There's a group of landlords that create a business model that is truly predatory, where they say “I'm gonna rent only to people who have been evicted because they have no choices and so I can rent them squalor and they're going to have to pay me because they've got an eviction on their record.” And that's why in the recently passed Tenant Bill of Rights landlords in KCMO are not entitled to use that as a criteria to categorically reject people. But that predator is still out there.
Fr. Justin: Well, and I think sadly, many tenants that you look at stopped paying rent before they were evicted, because there was a furnace that wasn't working or the basement was flooded, or the ceiling collapsed in their kids’ bedroom. So it's not just financial inability to pay. So here's the question, what can be done right now calling to protect tenants who simply can't pay because of the pandemic or who shouldn't be paying because of inadequate rental conditions?
Colleen: Those are two really different questions. And in number one, I think the answer is the moratorium. There needs to be a moratorium on evictions for the duration of the pandemic. And I am hopeful last night I'm a member of KC Tenants, which is a relatively new group that has mobilized the voice of low income renters to say we're here too.
Fr. Justin: You all were the ones that actually got the moratorium, or at least advocated for it with the judge here in Kansas City in the first place.
Colleen: Exactly. You're right. It expired on Monday and so now eviction court is going to be held on Thursday. The mayor has weighed in and Judge David Byrn is the guy's name. We had a protest at his home last night at 2510 Grand in the Santa Fe apartments and there were 70 of us that showed up and we said, please extend the moratorium on eviction for six months or the duration of the crisis. And he issued a statement last Thursday that said if the local municipality requests that, I will enforce it. Our mayor is requesting that, so our mayor's attorney is meeting with the judge tomorrow and we're hoping that they settle it and that that moratorium is extended for the duration.
Fr. Justin: So let's meet one of the objections that's out there. Because a lot of people say, look, if the tenants don't pay, these aren't all huge companies. Like you talked about, there's a lot of onesie-twosie landlords out there that actually aren't predatory, they want to make a difference.
Colleen: This is their income, right?
Fr. Justin: Right. And so if the tenants don't pay, are there going to be landlords who lose those rental homes? And is that going to further exacerbate the affordable housing shortage?
Colleen: It needs to be a two part effort. There also needs to be forbearance and relief for landlords who have mortgages on these properties so that they don't lose those properties. So if the tenant can't pay then indeed the landlord can't pay the mortgage and the person holding the mortgage needs to give forbearance for that. There needs to be pressure put on the servicers, the investors, the examiners to say grant forbearance during the crisis. And forbearance, there are different kinds, but one is a balloon payment at a date certain. So alright, we're going to give you forbearance for three months, but in month four, you're going to owe all that money back. Well, nobody has that kind of money. Instead, it needs to be, you've got a 30 year note, we're going to add that three months onto years 31, 32. We need to add it on at the end, so you'll be held and nobody will get evicted.
Fr. Justin: Okay, so roll it up one more time, then. The first part you're saying is the moratorium. And then you're saying the second part is the mortgage forbearance?
Colleen: So on the current reality, it needs to be a moratorium for tenants, as well as forbearance for landlords. Now when I owned 283 units of low income rental housing in the ‘80s and ‘90s, half of the rent payment went to maintain the property and the other half went to pay the debt. So there are still going to be some issues if I'm a landlord: how am I going to fix the toilet when it breaks or the roof when it leaks or whatever and I'd have no rip coming in. There's still gonna be some issues, but at least people will be able to kind of get by with a roof over their head.
Fr. Justin: I know you've thought about this at a national global level. And so this may or may not be something that's in your wheelhouse, but let's roll it up one more time. So let's say that the landlords aren't paying the mortgage holders, the mortgage holders then oftentimes are bundled together with big investment funds. I mean, where does it stop? Because I would agree with you.
Colleen: So the servicers are the people you and I get a mortgage from. We get it from the bank down the street. The bank sells that paper, the debt, to an investor and they hire, they outsource the function of collecting the mortgage and paying the debt. So the servicer is the one that decides to grant forbearance and what I'm hearing from my banker friends is that that's happening more and more and more during the crisis, that just by request, you get a 90 day forbearance. But the important thing is that the forbearance needs to not be a balloon payment, it needs to be added onto the back end of the note.
Colleen: What's interesting is that with the way that's structured right now, it goes back to your issue about not having a relationship. We don't have a local banker who I can go talk to about my situation. So it is a very complex problem. So again, I want to stay at fundamentals because you're educating me, but you're also educating those who are listening. And by the way, there are people listening right now who are live. If you want to chime in if you want to add a comment on Facebook, if you want to leave your experience, if you're facing eviction right now or you're a landlord, feel free to chime in. We want to know what you have to say. If we can't bring it on live, we'll definitely engage in the conversation after the podcast. But let's dive in a little bit to another one of the fundamentals, Colleen. So for the city to implement any effective housing assistance or policies, it's got to identify definitions of affordability. And so there are obviously widely different things when you think about affordability, people have very different incomes. And many people who do work don't make enough money to afford the suitable housing, like you've said. So as I understand that there are over 30,000 households who have an income in Kansas City of less than $15,000 annually, and certainly, that's the majority of our clients here at Reconciliation Services. So this shows that there's a substantial demand for housing at the very low income levels, whereas you mentioned the margins for those landlords are also incredibly slim. So first of all, what's affordable, and how do we define that?
Colleen: I think we don't define it the way the federal government does because that doesn't help us get to those people that you're just talking about. So if you use the federal definition that they use at IRS and at HUD (Department of Housing and Urban Development) for low income in our metropolitan and in our MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) the adjusted median income is about $74,000. And so the feds say 60% of that, so 60% of $74,000, it's like $45,000. That's not the people you're talking about and the people that I'm relating to at KC Tenants. Those folks can afford the units downtown and Crossroads and River Market that are going for 1,200 and 1,300 or more a month and it is affordable to them. And so the Federal Government allows the developer to get the incentives for that, to get tax credits for that. And in fact, it doesn't even begin to address the actual affordable problem. So if you look at some research that was done by Dr. Kirk McClure at KU a couple years ago, he said that there's a need for 25,000 units that cost less than $500 a month in Kansas City, Missouri proper. And that's roughly what you're talking about, with the people making $15,000. They can afford $300 or $400 a month, they can't afford $800 or $900. So we've got a real deficit of units that are at the right cost. Meanwhile, we're over-built in units that cost $800 to $1,200 a month. So his contention is we don't need more bricks and mortar, we need more affordable financing. We need the rents to be lower and in order to do that you need more money that you don't have to pay back. So in the old days when I was building houses in the ‘80s and ‘90s, two thirds of the costs we didn't have to pay back. So the units that I had I charged $235 a month and I only had to pay back $80 or so a month. So that that was that was manageable when the federal government played a very active role. So yeah, I define affordability based on 30% of your income going for housing related expenses and I think the most recent data I read was that there are 91,000 renters in Kansas City, Missouri and 50% of them are rent burdened, so they're paying more than the 30%. So they're not making ends meet basically. Yeah, so defining affordability is kind of a game when you look at the the city conversation in the last two years, and I have a particularly strong bias about this, where they're trying to convince for profit developers to set aside X number of units that they call affordable, and in return, they'll get the abatement and the other incentives. And the fact is that it's a badly broken system. Because these guys, they want to do market rate, they don't want to do low income. They aren't structured to do it, they don't care about it. And what we really need to do as a community, what I've seen nationally where it works best in Boston, Chicago, and Minneapolis, is when government and philanthropic dollars go to build the capacity of nonprofits. When I ran a nonprofit, nobody had to put a gun to my head and incentivize me to serve a low income population. That's my mission. So we could shift gears and instead of trying to incentivize the for profit guys that don't want to do it anyway, forget that, shift gears and build up the capacity of either socially driven for profit groups, like the Preservation of Affordable Housing or McCormack Baron Salazar, or the nonprofit groups.
Fr. Justin: I wish we had all day because there are a lot of things we could get into there and certainly we could clearly make the economic argument that regional sustainability, regional economic prosperity is easily directly tied to basic social determinants of health, which one of the key ones is obviously stable, safe housing. But there have been a lot of so-called bold ideas that have been put forth in Kansas City. They've got a new five year housing plan that was released in the last year. So how do you think that we can best provide and sustain housing for all of our residents affordably over the long term? But especially I want to ask you about traditionally black and brown neighborhoods that were intentionally disinvested and are even further behind in the kind of the structural systems that allow them to succeed. What do we do if it's not a mixed income market developer housing? What will work?
Colleen: There are three things. The first is groups like KC Tenants who are the voice of the people who are affected. Unlike people like you, who serve low income, and me, who used to serve low income and we're well meaning people and we probably go home to a relatively comfortable middle class life. In mobilizing, like what Tara Raghuveer has done, mobilizing the voice of the people who are affected. They're not going anywhere. They're not forgetting how they live every day. So when we had 70 people turn out last night at Judge Bryn’s home, those are people who face eviction today. And so making sure that that voice stays active and that we respond to it in the way that Mayor Lucas has done admirably. So his first night as Mayor, he spent the night at 23rd and Topping in a squalid apartment. People said to him, “look, we know you grew up low income, we know you were homeless, we know you were in and out of motel rooms with your mom, etc., but fast forward to today and look at how we live.” This home had roaches falling from the ceiling and stray gunfire all night long and raw sewage in the tub and truly squalid, which really helped him build his motivation to help work with KC Tenants to pass the Tenants Bill of Rights to enforce the Healthy Homes Ordinance, etc. So that voice, the KC Tenants and and groups that are mobilizing the voice of those in need are just hugely important. There's a way to go online and donate to that group. They're a very lean organization and extraordinarily effective. So that's the first thing. The second thing is the capacity to do it. So I think as a community, we need to say who's doing what and whose efforts, however big or small, what do they need? Where are the gaps? So there's a very interesting experiment going on over on the east side with very affordable homeownership. There's a group of private rehabbers, you may know some of them, Larry Myer is kind of the leading guy, where they get a house out of the land bank for next to nothing, they fix it up for $50,000 or $60,000 and they can sell it then to somebody for $600 a month for 3% down. So we can do that in Kansas City. They can't do that anyplace else. We can do it because our housing stock that remains is still affordable.
Fr. Justin: There's a lot of it. There's hundreds upon hundreds of homes that could be rehabbed, if we get to that. You mentioned something earlier you mentioned the Healthy Homes Initiative. So tell us about this kind of relatively new Healthy Homes Rental Inspection Program in KC.
Colleen: For the time being, it's been suspended because it's not safe for the inspectors to be inside people's homes. So they will resume that at whatever point it's deemed to be effective. So the Mayor put me on the Rental Housing Advisory Board, so I helped to oversee that program and there are strong positives with it. I was the treasurer of the campaign that passed that measure in August of 2018. So I made a lot of promises to a lot of people about what we could expect. One of the things that we've seen is that of the complaints turned in in the first full year of operation, 90% of those were true violations, and some of them were truly squalid. And so having it on the books that you can't have raw sewage, you have to have hot and cold running water, you have to have locks on the door, real basic stuff. So when it works and the tenant or a neighbor or a family member of an evicted tenant complains 90% of the time, it's legitimate, there's really a health reason for that complaint. My criticism of it is I think it needs to be much more aggressive, much more active, and it needs to address the worst of the worst first. So if they had to triage, who are we going after, they know where the really bad properties are, and a lot of them, unfortunately, are section eight multifamily programs that are place-based section eight. So the federal inspections are meaningless. So it's good for as much as it does, but in the first year of operation, they did fewer than 1,000 complaints and we have 91,000 rental units. So they need to pump up the volume of it. They need to do a lot more. What they are doing ,they're doing well.
Fr. Justin: Let me back this up. First of all, I've been in the homes of our clients, and you walk in and if there is a front door, which by the way, I've been into a client's home that had nothing more than a piece of plywood that that the young woman had to screw on and screw off. And then you would go into the home, and there was no window in the living room. The floors were just riddled with holes, like right down to the basement. There were cockroaches and rats and bed bugs in the home. You would go into the bathroom and as you indicated the bathtub is just full of squalid water and you asked, is there any electricity? No. Is there any running water? No, I go to my neighbors and I get it. And I've asked her, this one particular person, why are you living here? And she said, “Look, my dad is in a wheelchair. This is the only place he feels comfortable. He has mental health issues and if I take him anywhere out of here we have massive issues. In addition to that, I don't even know the landlord.” She said, “this is a landlord who lives out of state and I've sent him messages. I don't get anything back, but if I ever miss a payment, I definitely hear about it. I don't even know his real name. There's a manager.” And you look at the situation and how powerless that she felt and it was not only powerless economically, but she was trying to deal with a family member. She was the only caretaker for somebody who had very serious mental health issues, which I'm sure were only contributed to by the amount of chaos that was in the external environment. Nobody should be living in that.
Colleen: And there's a lot of it. That is not uncommon to hear about those conditions. I know you read the Matthew Desmond book, Evicted, that takes place in Milwaukee. That same exact situation happens here every day. I've been in the homes of a handful, at least of the KC Tenants folks, and they're spending $800-$900 a month to rent something that's almost uninhabitable.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I started here as executive director at RS, I think it was 2013. Back then our case managers actually could find affordable housing both east and west of Troost. And the interesting thing is sometimes it was easier to find it west of troost in the immediate area. But there's been a lot of development, I mean, millions upon hundreds of millions of dollars of development in Midtown. Now, some of which was funded by incentives and city programs and others. So what do we do? What do we do when we see the redevelopment of a place like Beacon Hill or some of the other neighborhoods east and south on troost? Obviously, we don't want to live in blight. We don't want to live in those conditions. What do we do right now when there isn't a federal program that's going to help make up that gap for the developer? Even now, state low income housing tax credits were removed by the governor of Missouri. What are we supposed to do right now while we're working on this pending policy change and long term legislative change that's needed? What are families doing?
Colleen: There isn't a good answer. I mean, the only short term band-aids are the moratorium against evictions, and waiting for the Healthy Homes to reopen. There's no good answer. It's a huge, ugly, awful problem. It's just like the George Floyd situation. We have huge, ugly, awful problems, and we don't have any quick fixes or any answers but building the will to address it. And you said it exactly right. We need to be solving the right problem. This isn't a bricks and mortar problem. This is a social disinvestment. This is a racial disparity. This is economic racism. They're deep problems and if we just do a quick gloss over and say, alright, we're going to do 350 units and have affordable family housing. Well, okay, that's worth doing, but it doesn't solve it at any kind of systemic level. It doesn't address the magnitude of the problem. I personally think politics is a big part of the answer. When I look at what I'm going to do with my life now through November, I'm going to be very politically active in Missouri and at the federal level, because I want people in office who actually care about this stuff and are effective enough to get something done
Fr. Justin: And thank goodness, there's people like you, Colleen, that dedicated your life with this single and passionate focus as a social leader to bring about affordable housing and to intervene in these particular areas. I know you're involved in leadership training, both in formal programs as well as on an individual basis. So let's dive into this as we wrap up, there are a lot of people listening, who are trying to figure out what they can do, not only about the issue of affordable housing, but about a number of social issues that they are passionate about. So often people want to do something, they want to become what we would talk about as social leaders, and they're not nonprofit folks, they're not independently wealthy, they're not politicians. So I always end the podcast with this question, what would you say to leaders who are listening who want to step up their social impact and become social leaders? What do they need to do? Where do they begin?
Colleen: This is actually a question that in the Kansas City Tomorrow Leadership Program sponsored by the Civic Council, Mary Birch, my co-facilitator, and I address this as at the culmination of the program and there's really four things. The first is it’s internal, you need to feel connected to and passionate about whatever issue you want to address, and there's no skipping over that. There's no shortcut to that. That's why the Kansas City Tomorrow Program is so good because it exposes people to education, crime and violence, housing, and jobs, etc. But you need it on a personal level. That's why my story, I'll never forget that terrifying year of 1980. It's like it stayed with me and whether your own life is traumatic or whatever, doing the deep dive to know that you personally are passionate about this and it's going to be part of your life's work, that's number one. The second thing, though, is more cerebral. And that's what you also said, is research. So what about this issue? What is underneath the presenting problems? And what interventions might work? So that you don't just stumble into “Oh, I have a friend who knows somebody and they work in this arena and maybe it'll work and maybe it won't.” For example, I worked a lot in financial literacy and I used to give speeches about financial literacy and I would always Google those words before I spoke, and there were 8 million results on Google. It means everybody and their brother’s trying to do something about this, but where's the literature that says what works? So what's the actual defining problem and what intervention might work? That's number two. So the passion is first, the research on the intervention is second. The third is to find kindred spirits because you can't do anything all by yourself. If you affiliate with an organization, if you start an organization, if you start an initiative, if you start a political campaign, you need to have kindred spirits just to feed your own soul. And the fourth is to not shy away from politics that people say, “oh, I don't want to dirty my hands with that, they're all corrupt, they're all self serving, they're all whatever.” Well, they have the power. And they're only that way if we let them, if we ignore politics, so the willingness to start at the grassroots level, sponsor candidates, write checks, knock on doors, work the polling place, whatever, to get involved in politics and make this government more accountable, more transparent and more honest.
Fr. Justin: Wow, thank you for unpacking. That’s a very clear four step plan that anybody listening can really dive deeply into. And I appreciate you mentioning Civic Council and the program that you work in there and the good work that you all are doing. I want to make sure that as we wrap up that people who care about the things that you care about and want to get involved know where to go to learn more. So you mentioned KC Tenants, why don't you give the website and any other website that you'd like to give so people can donate, they can connect, they can get involved?
Colleen: Wow. Well, KC Tenants at the bottom of the front page of the website is how to donate. On the immediate front, there is a COVID Recovery Fund that the Community Foundation has put together and I think they raised $17 million. I'm on a task force of people who are asking them to make some of that available for rental assistance. That's kind of a complicated way to do it, but it's a necessary step. Beyond that I don't have any immediately. There are a lot of good nonprofits. There's the Urban Neighborhood Initiative. There's Local Initiative Support Corporation. There's Northland Neighborhoods. There's Westside Housing. There's a lot of good nonprofits who are worth supporting who are doing good work.
Fr. Justin: So back to your point: find your passion, get educated, find a cohort, don't be afraid to get proximal and get political. Those are kind of the big four things. So I really want to make sure people know KC Tenants, as Colleen said. Colleen, I really appreciate you bringing your wisdom, your experience, your passion, your time, and for being the social leader that you are inspiring us and bringing these issues close to home.
Colleen: Well, Father, thank you for what you do at Reconciliation Services. It's the leading nonprofit in the field, just nobody is doing it better than you.
Fr. Justin: I am deeply, deeply honored to hear you say that. So hang with me for a few minutes as we wrap up. And again, thank you so much. Well, my friends, we've reached the end of another show and I want to say thank you for listening today. If you like today's podcast, I have a favor to ask. Please follow the podcast on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure that you smash the like button and you hit the little bell so that you know whenever we go live. This is going to really help us share The Social Leader podcast with more people and begin to continue to build relationships and build that educational base with folks who want to advance their social leadership. Also, you can tune in to watch this show live on the Reconciliation Services Facebook page and on our YouTube page every Tuesday right around 12:30pm central. So lastly, as we wrap up, I want to tell you that if you liked today's show and you want to learn to lead with greater social impact, you want to do more of the things that Colleen was talking about, then I want to encourage you to go to TheSocialLeader.org, sign up to find out more about a new e-course that's getting ready to launch very soon called The Social Leader Essentials, answer a few short questions, give us your email, and one of our team members is going to reach out to you right away to see if the course is right for you. Once again, TheSocialLeader.org. My friends as we wrap up again, it's important for us particularly in the wake of the things that have happened across our nation in the last week, which really are only the latest sentence in chapter upon chapter upon chapter in our country of the conditions for the poor, and particularly for communities of color, it is important for us to stop, to be okay with being uncomfortable for a minute and to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. We need to look at the issues, set aside the common sense answers that we normally bring, the normal objections, the things our parents told us, the things we read, set those aside for just a minute. And listen, listen to the lived experience of our neighbors, listen to experts like Colleen, who have told us from 30 years experience what the reality of living on the margins of our communities feels like, and get involved, get educated, build relationships, get involved. With that, I'll look forward to being with you on the next episode of The Social Leader. Stay tuned and please until then learn to lead with greater social impact.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Tom Esselman, CEO of Connecting For Good, a nonprofit providing access, tools, training, and partnerships to promote digital citizenship in low income communities. Fr. Justin and Tom discuss the economic and systemic factors affecting access to training and technology, promoting self-advocacy, and the importance of increased connectivity — technologically and relationally.
EPISODE 10 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Hey everyone, welcome to The Social Leader podcast, episode 10. Our goal in this podcast is to help you learn to lead with greater social impact. I'm Father Justin Mathews. Real quick before we begin today's episode, I want to let you know that this podcast is presented by Reconciliation Services, a nonprofit social venture in Kansas City, working to cultivate a community seeking racial and economic reconciliation to reveal the strength of all. You can find out more about Reconciliation Services programs and even support our work at rs3101.org. Today's show is sponsored by Thelma’s Kitchen, Kansas City's first donate-what-you-can restaurant, open for lunch again starting in June. Lastly, if you like today's show, go visit TheSocialLeader.org where you can sign up to find out more about a new e-course called Social Leader Essentials launching very soon. Okay, now on with our show.
Due to the COVID-19 crisis, our lives have been jarringly shifted into the digital world. However, from rural areas where broadband doesn't exist to poor urban areas where it's unaffordable, millions are going without internet access just when they need it the most. We use the internet to learn, to work, to communicate, to socialize, however, some groups are virtually digitally excluded. For some the adaptation to digital life and work wasn't that difficult, but for a large number of Americans, broadband connectivity simply isn't available or it's just not affordable. The problem’s known as the digital divide and it's one that's dogged lawmakers and policymakers for years. Many, like the FCC commissioner, said that the coronavirus crisis is exposing the hard truths about the scope of the digital divide. Well, today I'm talking with Tom Esselman, the CEO of Connecting For Good about digital inclusion and social leadership. Connecting For Good is an organization that's linking access and opportunities for digital skills, training, hardware, and connectivity for people of all ages. Formerly, Tom was an executive at Hallmark Cards for 22 years where he led the development of technology enhanced products, actually one of my favorite things, including those little cards that sing to you or that you can record on. It's pretty cool. Welcome Tom to The Social Leader podcast.
Tom Esselman: Thanks, Father Justin. I'm thrilled to be here.
Fr. Justin: Well, I want to dive right into our questions and talk a little bit about social leadership as we move on. So, first and foremost, the reality is that we need to kind of begin by clarifying some terminology. So what do you mean when you talk about digital inclusion? And why is connectivity so elusive for so many people?
Tom: I think the term the digital divide is probably most commonly used to talk about the gap between those who have access to technology and those who don't. Digital inclusion we're trying to pitch as a more positive term and a more comprehensive term and it basically means five things: (1) access to a computer device that is affordable enough that you can own, (2) access to internet connectivity, (3) the digital literacy skills to be able to use something beyond just a cell phone, (4) online content and the availability of content that is for productive use, and (5) IT support because invariably when you do get a computer and Wi-Fi and you learn how to use computers, we're all subject to needing help from time to time. So there's literally a National Digital Inclusion Alliance, based in Columbus, Ohio, and it has defined digital inclusion as including those five things.
Fr. Justin: I know you've been very involved, not just here in the region around Kansas City, but also nationally, and you've spoken all over and you've been involved in lobbying and policy. So we want to really get into this but let me back up and say that even if households officially have a device with access to the internet, the reality is during COVID that it's really highlighted during this lockdown that we have to be more careful, I think, with our definition of what an internet connection really is or what kind of devices are really helping us when we're home. Because I was thinking about it, maybe you've got a cell phone, maybe you've got the ability to get on and watch a movie or surf the web or something like that, but it's not the right device let's say for writing an essay or doing your homework if you're a kid who's doing school from home. So how important is it to get the actual hardware to families or to individuals, even if they have access?
Tom: Well, we've known this for years and Connecting For Good, by the way, is eight years old. But what we've learned from just the last two and a half months during the COVID-19 crisis has really been more of a reinforcement of what we've known all along, and that is this. First and foremost, the most urgent need that came boiling to the surface was when schools were closed for spring break and then they realized they weren't coming back from spring break, and families that have their kids staying at home but also being required to do schoolwork, that put a whole new level of urgency to the parents who weren't equipped at home with anything more than a cell phone. Even if the kids had a tablet or a laptop that they were given from school, if they didn't have a Wi-Fi connection at home that was going to put a lot of extra stress on the parents, who were now tasked with making sure that their kids actually kept up with their schoolwork, even though they weren't physically in school. And to put a finer point on it, Father Justin, we learned, and it was actually during my days back at Hallmark that I got a chance to spend some time with Microsoft and their research group. And one of the studies they looked at was the difference between how people interact with mobile devices versus devices that have what's called a situated display. And so whenever you can have a home computer system, or a desktop as they're called, that's located in one spot in your home, much the way a dishwasher or a toaster is always in the same place in your home, it promotes much more productive use and you don't have as many tendencies to drop the device or misplace the device or otherwise put it out of use. So we've really seen a difference by making available to families during the crisis, to make sure that even though they have a cell phone with the capability of even some people who are good at doing some things on a cell phone, we really push getting a desktop or a laptop that can be plugged in and situated in your home. And it has really enhanced the productivity of the whole family.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you brought up something I'd never thought of, which is, I guess I would have assumed that the more mobile devices, the more it could be used, but you're actually saying that some sort of stability or location in the home is actually what leads to greater adoption, or how is that working?
Tom: What we're seeing here is the greater society becoming more acutely aware of the impact of the digital divide. In other words, most of us have grown up taking for granted that we can access the internet either by sitting down at a desk or by walking around with a mobile device. But the fact that we've had access to both has made us that much more productive. But you don't stop to think, when the only access you've ever had the capability of using is mobile, once you sit yourself down in a stable environment, you have no way of knowing until it happens, how much more it can stimulate your focus in your ability to be more productive. And so we try to keep our thoughts on the silver lining of this crisis. And if more people in the community who have grown up with digital access can recognize how important it is to bolster families who have only had one or the other so you have a more complete set of tools, that's what ultimately helps people feel like they're part of the digital age. And unless you've been without one or the other, you would have no way of knowing that.
Fr. Justin: I think about educators because they've been scrambling to move instruction online, and the Senate Joint Economic Committee I read said that there's this so-called homework gap that's affecting roughly 12 million children across the country, according to some studies. They've also shown that low income students, students of color are most often those who lack broadband access, especially at home. So what can be done to overcome these digital inequities?
Tom: We, of course, have been working on it for eight years, and we've finally seen a glimpse of the possibility that at some point, we could start thinking about internet at home the same way we think about electricity or running water. Because I think, Father Justin, until we reach that point, we're gonna always be beset with the long term reinforcing notions that if I'm generationally poor, I will have only access to what I can get through a government assistance phone or any subsidies I might get to pay for my communications. I will use it for a cell phone before I would use it for a home cable or home internet system. And so if we can remove that barrier from the lives of the neediest in our community, I think it will start to promote the back end, which is what I was talking about, a more productive sense that I can actually be a digital citizen. So we're doing our work day in and day out just to get people computers and get people solutions to internet and little transactional things, but what we're really pushing for as an organization and why we stay connected to national issues is to use what we're learning as really acute evidence of how much our society could be impacted when people go into an apartment or home to live in don't have to think twice about whether they're going to have internet or not, that it's just part of what you have, the same way you would have electricity and running water.
Fr. Justin: That's an interesting point. If you think about particularly right now, during COVID, people are ordering from GrubHub and Uber Eats because they're afraid of going to the grocery store. And if you don't have internet access and the devices and if you don't think of the internet in today's day and age, like a utility, not having access to the device and the internet's really only a part of digital inclusion. And I love how you talk about the internet being so necessary that it's a utility, it's like water or public transit. But what are the other barriers that can help us understand digital inclusion and digital exclusion? What are some of those other barriers?
Tom: Well, I'm gonna try and explain it as succinctly as possible. But what we've experienced, Connecting For Good, in our eight short years, has showcased kind of an evolution of learning about all these different barriers and I'll try to explain. When it started out eight years ago, it was all about one thing, access to the internet. What prompted it was Google Fiber had the world's fastest highest quality internet and they picked Kansas City as the first city to come and introduce it and right away that was the birth of Connecting For Good. We started thinking about all the families who either weren't going to be able to afford it or otherwise would view it as some kind of a luxury Item. And so we focused on one of the things to get people their own affordable internet. And interestingly, along the way, as Google Fiber was going into housing authority complexes and starting to offer it for free to low income communities, in some cases only 70-80% of the residents chose to sign up for it.
Fr. Justin: Well, why would that be? If somebody is going to offer you free broadband, even if it's five megabit download or something, which I think is what the free service was from Google at least at the time. Why would somebody not want it? And then the other question I have is were landlords not interested in bringing into their buildings? I know I'm clergy, but I'm kind of a layman, so help illumine some of that for me, why wouldn't you want it?
Tom: Yeah, and this is where the social venturing experience and perspective really helps because there are a lot of deeply embedded economic structures that dictate the way internet has been provided. And also along with that is the marketing tools. Google was one of the world's largest companies and if you're a low income, transient, individual or household, you're not going to feel comfortable giving your personal private information to the largest company in the world, particularly if you've grown up without understanding technology. We would go to sign up events and some residents would say, “I am worried about that Wi Fi access point that they're going to put for free in my apartment that has a camera in it and that they're just using this as a way to spy on me.”
Fr. Justin: But are millennials, though, in those low income communities, and Gen Xers, are they saying that too? I always hear about the younger kids being digitally literate from the time they're leaving the hospital. But are you saying you found people of all ages were sort of digitally illiterate if they didn't grow up with it?
Tom: Now you bring up a good point. I mean, a lot of those types of comments that I shared with you came from older adults who didn't understand technology, but their teenage kids and working age adults also have trust issues when it comes to working with big companies. So it is a matter of trust, it's a matter of kind of having empathy with those that you're serving. And we found that, to answer the question about what other factors are keeping people from being connected, landlords don't want to get stuck in a contract where they have residents who they don't know if they're going to stay in their lease from month to month. And they're worried about their own trust factors with the companies that they sign up for. So to boil it down to how Connecting For Good has dealt with this and where we're moving forward is we have to make sure that we're treating everybody in the community that has been suffering from this digital divide not as a statistic or as a number. These are human beings, and these are families, and they have issues they're trying to deal with. And so our efforts to try to close the digital divide and provide those five components of digital inclusion is about reaching out and collaborating and working with groups that can fundamentally have a level of trust with the people that we're trying to help so that they can see the benefit without feeling like they're being coerced into it because it's a commercial transaction.
Fr. Jusin: When you talk about trust, that's something that at Reconciliation Services we can really resonate with. We run a counseling and trauma therapy program and one of the reasons that people don't go get counseling even though they've been witness to gunfire or been through all sorts of traumas is that there's historic abuses, there's historic exclusion, racial and economic, and then that trust isn't there. I want to tell everybody that I'd love for you to comment. Definitely share your comments, share your experiences with the digital divide and digital inclusion. Share your thoughts. Tom, you mentioned a word that's one of my favorites and you talked about social venturing. So Connecting For Good recently announced, I think right before COVID, that there was going to be a merger with the Surplus Exchange, which is a longtime digital literacy advocate and computer recycling organization in Kansas City. So talk about this merger. Why was this merger important for the future of Connecting For Good and how does it reposition Connecting For Good as a nonprofit organization?
Tom: I came to Connecting For Good four years ago, so four years after we were founded, and the earlier premise of just building Wi-Fi networks and computer labs to help low income communities get access to the internet, there wasn't any financial sustainability in that. And so part of my goal, of course, coming from a Hallmark background, I think in business terms, but I also think about the emotional connection between people. And so we saw that when we were providing digital literacy training and helping people get connected to the internet, if they didn't have a computer, we were getting donations of computers and we were doing our best, but it was always a hit or miss. The Surplus Exchange had a business that involves positioning itself as an IT service company. They got certified for data privacy and data security when it comes to wiping hard drives and things like that that are major concerns for businesses who donate computers. And over the years the board of directors who ran Surplus Exchange had kind of exhausted their ability to lead the organization after they had some management turnover and they asked Connecting For Good if we would be willing to take on the business.
Fr. Justin: That's a perfect partnership for you guys. It's like tailor-made for you.
Tom: It couldn't have been better. We had a steep learning curve to kind of understand how we could become vertically integrated because essentially that's what we are now. We operate a nearly 70,000 square foot warehouse in the West Bottoms. We've had to clean it up. We've had to go through the process of understanding and getting set up for certification standards for data privacy and security with regard to data destruction. And now we're positioning ourselves to the business community as an IT service company that can help you dispose of your old IT assets. And where for-profit recyclers charge a fee and they're just trying to see how they can maximize their profit, a nonprofit recycler will always look to focus on what could be reused. So if there's desktop and laptop computers that we pick up, we won't charge you a fee and you as a business will get the double benefit of knowing that we're helping the community by refurbishing and redistributing those computers back out into the low income community.
Fr. Justin: What I love about that is that it's also kind of pushing Connecting For Good to the forefront of green tech in a way. You guys are providing not just an awesome service and sustainability for the organization, but there's a lot of junk that gets just thrown away that has mercury and other sorts of things that shouldn't be in the landfills. Right? I think that regenerative aspect is really big right now.
Tom: It's huge. Nothing that we take in ever goes into a landfill land that's part of our certification standards. It takes me back, Father J, when I was first interviewing for the job at Connecting For Good. Finally, I can see it through. I had a platform that talked about four outcome areas. You'll be familiar with them because they kind of resound with what our former mayor and I would say our current mayor believes in but they are education, employment, economic impact, and the environment. And for my four years here, we've been pretty good on education, employment, and economic impact, but the environment was never something that we could lay claim to as Connecting For Good other than through partnerships. Well now that is just as big of an outcome as any of the other three, and it's also providing a nice pathway to financial sustainability, because we can turn broken down electronic components into a revenue stream with downstream vendors who are also certified for environmental responsibility.
Fr. Justin: I think that's so important, Tom, because I always tell people at Reconciliation Services that yesterday's fundraising model is not going to fuel today and tomorrow's innovation and it's certainly not going to solve the social problems as complex as they are. I want to jump in a little bit on the personal level, because I'd love it if you would tell me about why you chose to dedicate your life and your leadership, after 22 years at Hallmark, to this cause of digital inclusion.
Tom: Well, I got to know Steve Jobs’ philosophies of innovation a lot when I was working at Hallmark as innovation director. He talks about how for dots to connect in your future, you have to trust, you have to follow your heart, you have to know you're doing the right things. And the experience I had at Hallmark showed me that technology enhances products. For older adults in particular who are less comfortable, they actually loved being able to open up a card and hear a few bars of What A Wonderful World by Louis Armstrong.
Fr. Justin: I remember the first time I opened one of those things, Tom, it was like, wow, this is amazing! And then my kids’ grandparents recorded themselves telling a Christmas story and sent it to the kids. It was brilliant stuff you guys were doing.
Tom: So for me, all of a sudden, I realized how technology could be an empowering tool for people who otherwise thought differently about the way they connect with people. I left Hallmark in 2012 to go work in Southwest Florida with older adults and innovation and that was my first foray into nonprofit. And then when I learned about Connecting For Good, it was based on someone who knew me from my Hallmark days who saw how much opportunity there was to turn technology into a tool that could help others. And while I was very familiar with the gap in comfort level with technology among older adults, what I hadn't been aware of is the digital divide and how much it affects people just based on their income and their racial and socioeconomic status. And so when I joined Connecting For Good I was able to take a lot of the great experience I got from the brand essence of Hallmark and all the people and volunteering I did at Hallmark and focus on how we could do something that still has a very much of a business enterprise type of pathway. But it's clearly about filling gaps for those who have just gone without access to things that are so vital to their normal day to day livelihood. And that's just made it seem for me like it's not a job at all. I would dare say that I wouldn't feel as fulfilled as I am now had I not had the business experience, particularly at a company like Hallmark, but just knowing that I can combine that experience with the ability to help people in a way that now has some financial sustainability is really exciting.
Fr. Justin: Well, I commend you for not only your innovative work globally at hallmark, which is inspiring in and of itself. You could have gone to Florida and just been on the beach after a career like that. The thing is that you've dedicated yourself, not only while you were at Hallmark, but also now after you're retired, 22 years at Hallmark, to what we call social leadership and really advancing from your position of access, your position of power, or procurement, whatever it may be, to advancing this particular social cause with the access and the leadership that you could bring to it which is what this podcast is all about, learning to lead with greater social impact from wherever we are. So I always end every podcast with this question, and it's really something I'd love for you to just sort of get very personal with us, but what advice would you give to leaders still in the corporate world, who want to make a greater social impact?
Tom: It's something that I continue to evolve in my learning about, but the advice that I have been able to give to a few people who have contacted me since I've left is what I shared just a few minutes ago, you have to know something that's driving you in your heart. I think it can't easily be something that you just make up. You have to look at what your life's pathway has put you in contact with. Going back to Steve Jobs, he took a class on penmanship that ultimately led him to create new and different fonts for Mac computers. So, for me, having had the experience that I had is something I drew from in a really positive way. And so I would tell people just follow your heart based on the experiences that you've had that feel authentically part of who you are. Because the one thing that can be sniffed out really easily in the nonprofit world, and maybe less easily in the business world, you have to be authentic in what you're doing and the people that you're working with. You can't cover it up with a profit margin. And so it really comes through, particularly at the level of the staffing and volunteers, and then the people that you're working with, whether you call them clients, customers or whatnot. I will just summarize it in this one phrase, which I know you're familiar with, because it's part of revealing strengths. And that has to do with walking with people, doing things with people not doing things for people. And if you can approach a nonprofit initiative from that perspective, that you're on a journey and you're joining hands with people, you're not there to do something that will save them. I think that approach will serve anyone really well who wants to go into nonprofit work.
Fr. Justin: Well, I love what you said. We're trying to actually help people who aren't nonprofit leaders begin to think like social venturers, begin to think like people who are working for passion driven, purpose driven organizations. But I love what you said about sort of finding your natural passion, going deep and really understanding it, being as authentic as you can. And when you said that I thought about, just being real about it, millennials, in particular, are wanting to work for companies that go beyond the product and so these issues of being a social leader really have to do with retention and recruitment and employee engagement, as well as the social leadership in the community. And I love that you did that at Hallmark. Love that after Hallmark, you've dedicated yourself to doing the same thing as a nonprofit leader. So if you are ever in the area come by and let's keep talking about this because I know that you could talk about this issue all day long. You're super passionate about our topic. Thank you so much for joining us today. Tell our listeners how they can connect with you and how they can help, Tom.
Tom: Well, our website is ConnectingForGood.org and you can email us info@connectingforgood.org. Check out our Facebook page and our Twitter feed. Father Justin, I just want to thank you. You understand so many of the principles that we've talked about, the idea of doing things at the same level as any strong business would do. If you provide quality service to people and you're treating them as your friends and you're walking with them, it's just all about being authentic and doing things with quality, then I think you're gonna achieve the outcomes that you need and you'll be able to make sure you have some sustainability to it. And I've learned that from what you've been doing at Reconciliation Services. And I know that you also agree we both have learning curves that we're continuing to go up and as we see ways to keep going, and I just appreciate having the opportunity to spend this time with you and to be part of what you're doing and what we're working on together in Kansas City.
Fr. Justin: Thank you so much for joining us today. I will never forget when Connecting For Good was just getting off the ground that we actually had you guys here in Reconciliation Services. I won't say that the offices were amazing. I'm pretty sure you were in our old basement, but the services that you provided and the education and the digital literacy work and the access to tech and software, it was fantastic. We were glad to play just the smallest part in the incubation of what I think is a really important organization for our region, who's lifting up things that we need to be talking about, especially now during COVID on a national level. So Tom, hang with me for a minute. Thank you again so much for being with us today.
Tom: Thanks again.
Fr. Justin: Alright, well, thanks again for listening today. If you like today's podcast, I have a favor to ask of you. Please follow the podcast on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. This will really help us share the show with more people. Make sure that you smash the like button, share it out on social media, and hit the little bell on YouTube so that you can also tune in to watch the show live on Reconciliation Services Facebook page. We broadcast every Tuesday at 12:30pm central. Lastly, if you like today's show and you want to learn how to lead with greater social impact, remember to visit TheSocialLeader.org, sign up to find out more about our new e-course called the Social Leader Essentials, which is launching very soon, answer a few short questions online, and then one of our team members is going to reach out to you to see if the course is right for you. So until next time, learn to lead with greater social impact. See you then.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Gwendolyn Grant, President and CEO of the Urban League of Greater Kansas City. They discuss about how self awareness can lead to social awareness, the importance of evaluating the data to understand disparities facing people of color, how to lead without "positional power," and the necessity of leaders to lean into discomfort.
EPISODE 9 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Well hello, my friends! Welcome to The Social Leader podcast where we learn to lead with greater social impact. Before we begin today, just a quick reminder that The Social Leader podcast is presented by Reconciliation Services and sponsored by Thelma’s Kitchen, Kansas City's first donate-what-you-can restaurant. The mission of Reconciliation Services is to cultivate a community that's seeking racial and economic reconciliation to turn Troost Avenue from a dividing line to a gathering place in our city and to reveal the strength of all. You can find out more about Reconciliation Services, our social and therapeutic services, our program Thelma’s Kitchen, as well as our Foster Grandparents Program at rs3101.org. Now let's jump into the show. It is the ninth episode of The Social Leader podcast. I am incredibly honored to have a special guest with us today. Her name is Gwendolyn Grant. She is the CEO and President of Kansas City's Urban League. We're going to have an amazing conversation about leadership, about learning to lead with greater social impact, about how she became the leader that she is today. We're also going to dive into some very important issues around the state of black Kansas City and then extrapolate that on to other socioeconomic and social factors, particularly focusing on equity in our country during this time of COVID-19. Stay with me and we'll be right back with Gwendolyn Grant of the Urban League.
Fr. Justin: Well welcome Gwendolyn. It's so wonderful to have you here today on The Social Leader podcast. How are you?
Gwendolyn Grant: I'm wonderful. Thank you, Father Justin, it’s definitely a pleasure to be here with you this afternoon.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. We've been longtime friends here in Kansas City and I've admired your work for many years in the community. And if I'm not mistaken, you started as the CEO of Kansas City's Urban League all the way back in 1995. Is that right?
Gwendolyn: No, no, no, no, I actually started working at the Urban League in 1995. I became CEO in 2001. But I've been there a long time. It's been a long time.
Fr. Justin: Well, your impact is so great I just had to extrapolate it across all the years that you've been there. No, for real, I've seen you on so many shows. You're on every important panel that's happening in Kansas City. Your organization publishes a book almost every year, although this year is a bit of an exception, as I understand. We'll get back to that, the state of black Kansas City. Obviously the Urban League is a historic national civil rights organization with tremendous impact and I think going even further beyond the beginning of the civil rights movement, and perhaps you can illuminate some of that in a minute. But before we jump in, this podcast is all about helping us as leaders learn to lead with greater social impact, whether we’re in nonprofits or in the for-profit world, wherever we are in life, learning to lead with greater social impact. And so of course, on this show, we bring on folks like you who can speak not only to the depth of the social issues, but also can teach us about leadership. So the first thing I really want to know, and we've never really had a chance to chop it up and talk about this, is how did you become the leader of the Urban League? How did you know from childhood even that you were destined to be the leader that you are today?
Gwendolyn: Wow, what a question, Father! This takes me back. Well, I think one thing I must say about leadership is that we really have to be tuned into our life experiences and recognizing that we live on purpose and to know what your purpose is or what your calling is and evidence of that starts to show up early in life. So I grew up during the civil rights movement. In the aftermath of Dr. King's assassination, I had the opportunity to visit Washington DC for the closeout of the Poor People's Campaign, the March on Washington that he led, which is one of the the final civil rights activities that he was engaged in and he left that to go to Memphis to deal with the garbage workers strike, in which point he was assassinated. Well, growing up and watching all of these events unfold on TV, of course, being emotionally invested and personally invested in the civil rights movement, I had the opportunity to, after his assassination, they planned an event called Solidarity Day to close out the Poor People's March on Washington and to celebrate the life and legacy of Dr. King. They had caravans coming from all across the country, buses, and my mom allowed me to go to the ceremony as a preteen. I don't want to say exactly what age because we don't want anyone trying to guess how old I really am. I will never tell! My mom allowed me to go and I basically got on a bus with a bunch of church people. It was a bus that left out of the Kaw Valley Bank over in Kansas City, Kansas. And I got on the bus by myself and the church ladies took care of me and I rode on this bus to Washington, DC. And I had the opportunity to witness not only that celebration, but to walk through the camp site where people had left their homes and traveled to Washington, DC to make a statement about poverty in America because Dr. King started to begin to focus not only on the racial divide, but on the issue of poverty for all people in America at that time.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, that was a logical step and something actually that you are building you're still dealing with today and trying to advance. We'll get to that.
Gwendolyn: So basically, having that experience, seeing the sacrifice that people had made, and understanding the sacrifice that Dr. King and other civil rights leaders and volunteers had made just to try to make America better, to try to make life better for people of color in this country, had an overwhelming impact on me as a young child. And so from that point on, I have pretty much invested my life or focused my work and my service on trying to improve the conditions, the social conditions and the economic conditions that impact African Americans.
Fr. Justin: That one bus trip sounds like it was sort of a seminal moment for you, a real axiomatic moment where your life sort of turned and it also sounds like your mother was a bold and visionary parent as a preteen. I have three boys who are all teenagers and I kind of can't imagine putting one of my teenagers, even with church ladies, on a bus and sending them. Your mom must have been a pretty incredible person. Where did you grow up and what was home like for you and how did that impact your leadership today in the way that you approach leadership at the Urban League?
Gwendolyn: So I grew up here in Kansas City on 20th Street, just off of Indiana. So I actually now live in work not far from where I grew up. Life in my household. My mom's a single parent, I had two older brothers, but she was definitely a force in our lives, pressing for us to become well educated, pressing for us to be socially engaged and to use our time here on this earth to make a difference. She was someone that read a lot, watched the news a lot. She did not complete high school, but she was a very like self educated woman and she instilled those values in her children. So all of us have, through either our work or through our community service, made strong efforts to give back to pay our rent for the time we have here on earth.
Fr. Justin: The impact of our childhood I think we discount sometimes the thoughts and the things that come forward in our life that really shaped the work that we do. And as we kind of take a look at the recent history of your leadership, and again, you've been there in one way or another as a leader since 1995 at the Urban League. I'd love for you to tell some of our listeners who might not know the importance of the Urban League, what's the mission of, particularly, Kansas City's Urban League? And then in this time, there's been a lot of change, what are maybe two or three of some of the greatest victories that you've been able to lead the Urban League in Kansas City to attaining?
Gwendolyn: Greatest victories? That's hard to say. I will just point out that our mission is to enable African Americans and other disadvantaged populations to secure economic self reliance, parity, power, and civil rights. We do that through developing data driven, research proven programs and services to help our people to achieve economic self sufficiency. So we operate workforce development programs. We are heavily involved in education. Those are our two primary areas of focus education and workforce development. And under those umbrellas, there are a number of things that we do. We publish, not annually, about every two to three years, we publish the State of Black Kansas City Equality Index. And through that publication, we measure the disparities that exist between blacks and whites and Hispanics and whites in economics, education, health, social justice, and civic engagement. And we use those data to help to elevate the important issues relative to advocacy for improving or changing policies and practices that continue to contribute to the inequities. And we use it to inform dialogue to try to bridge the racial divide in Kansas City. And we think that it's really important to have data to elevate those conversations.
Fr. Justin: I was going to ask this question a little bit later, but let's actually get into that, because the State of Black Kansas City book is actually incredibly important. And in my opinion, there isn't enough data. There isn't enough data about people of color and the entrepreneurship or access to capital issues. We hear a lot about lots of different issues. In our society, we hear about inequity but until you hear family stories, which is sort of how you get that lived experience, and then when you see the data that then extrapolates those families stories out into the larger framework, it's difficult for folks to understand the plight of our neighbors who might even just live a few blocks away from us. So what I want to ask you is what is the importance of quality and comprehensive data, particularly in social leadership, not just for you as a nonprofit leader and someone who's trying to bring forward the issues in the black community in Kansas City in particular, but help us to understand why do we need to slow down and make sure that we look at comprehensive and high quality data in our social leadership when?
Gwendolyn: Well, one of the primary reasons is because it's just the facts, right? So when you bring data to substantiate or to make it crystal clear, these are the conditions that exist, this is not something that we're bringing from an emotional perspective or from a rhetorical perspective as often that can be a label that is placed on civil rights organizations or social justice champions when we start talking about inequities. We need to bring the data that supports that because then it makes it unequivocally clear that this is the situation that we need to address. So let's take all the personalities out of it, all of that, the distraction and let's just focus on the facts. The other reason that is important is you have to know where you've been and understand what the conditions are in order to be able to address them. So you can't go out here and try to solve these problems, if you don't have clarity about what the problems are and what are the contributing factors. So it just makes it extremely important to understand data, it is the reality and then build programs and build advocacy around the information around.
Fr. Justin: It's amazing to me in this day and age that we live in, where we've got everything from Google Analytics to smart streets, smart cities, Wi Fi enabled bus stops, you name it, we've got data coming out our ears. But then again, when you try to dig in and get beyond sort of a city level and really get into a zip code level or neighborhood level, it really begins to break down and you can find data about all sorts of things in our city, from transit to stoplights, but it's very hard to find data that can really illumine the kinds of situations that the Urban League is trying to do in advancing prosperity and civil rights. I'd like to know, obviously the State of Black Kansas City, from what I understand at a national level, that book isn't going to be published in 2020? It's going to be published in 2021 after the census, right? Is that right?
Gwendolyn: Well, we hope that that's correct. We're certainly not publishing this year, and intentionally prior to knowing about the COVID-19 pandemic, but certainly because of the 2020 census. But the other driver for us is having the resources and the capacity to publish. We've been blessed and fortunate to have the philanthropic community recognize the importance of this work, of this research in this publication to invest in it. So we hope that in 2021 the resources will be there because it will be post the 2020 census and then we can put out the study with the updated census information.
Fr. Justin: So what do you think is going to be different, post the census, post 2021, when we get into next year, because of COVID-19? We did a show with Qiana Thomason from the Health Forward Foundation a number of episodes ago where we went in really deep about health equity and inequities, particularly among communities of color in Kansas City and across the nation. So we've established a baseline for anyone who's been listening for a while about some of those inequities. But when those State of Black Kansas City and the National Urban League's book comes out on the State of Black America, what do you think is going to be different post COVID-19?
Gwendolyn: Well, I'm certain the data will be devastating, because basically, we are now in a depressed economy. We were in February, prior to the pandemic and the shutdown of the economy, we were in what is called a full employment economy. So the overall unemployment rate was around 5.3%, the lowest it had been in 20 some odd years, right? But even then, the unemployment rate for African Americans during a full employment economy was still 1.5-2 times higher than the unemployment rate of whites in America. So now we are in a depressed economy and we anticipate unemployment amongst blacks is now about 3 times higher than it is amongst whites. So post the 2020 census and post the COVID-19 pandemic, it stands to reason that unemployment amongst African Americans will be probably 3-4 times higher than unemployment amongst whites, which is what it was during the Great Recession. So, the economic impact of this pandemic will be devastating and is devastating already, both from an economic perspective and from a public health, from a healthcare perspective on the African American community. The infection rate and the death rate as a result of COVID-19 is highest amongst African Americans in any other population group in this country.
Fr. Justin: It's amazing to actually look at the data at what's happened. If you think about the Great Depression, we've seen numbers that equal or approach the Great Depression. And I think the last count that I remember from just recalling from memory was like 14.7% unemployment. Right now as we're recording this in May 2020, over 33 million people are out of work. But here's the difference, though, that I think is really striking. Unlike the Great Depression, where that took place over a period of months, 33 million people are out of work now in five weeks. And like you said, these historic racial and economic disparities in the United States are exacerbated by COVID-19, of course. So how should we go and be taking historic racial equity and racial disparities into account when we address equal opportunity?
Gwendolyn: Good question. So first off, you have to understand how we got here. Again, it's about understanding history because I think oftentimes people operate from the erroneous assumption that somehow all things are equal, and we live in a meritocracy, and that African Americans and other minorities have the level playing field, and we are in this situation because maybe we don't work as hard, we need to get more education, we need to do whatever. Well, what the data show is that number one, we are having to address structural and systemic racism in order to bridge this divide and to understand what that means you have to understand historically, the systems were designed to marginalize and isolate basically African Americans We have been denied full access to the economic mainstream of this country. So we are so many years behind economically, that then you layer on a recession, a depression, a pandemic, and it just creates a deeper, deeper divide, and makes it much more difficult for us to achieve economic parity.
Fr. Justin: I just want to drive this point home because a lot of people are going to hear what you're saying, and maybe not agree, because not everybody's looked at the data. But here's one of the best analogies I've heard when and that is: Imagine that we're all sitting down to play Monopoly at the same time. And you've probably heard this one before. And if you took a classroom, and you had all the white kids in the classroom start monopoly, and everyone has the same rules. And then you don't let anyone else in the classroom who are black students or non white students start playing until four hours later. Then you give everybody the same money, everybody the same rules, everybody the same access to the table. How do you think that that second group who didn't get to start playing Monopoly until four hours later, how are they going to do? Well, the point is they never catch up, or I think statistically, somebody's run the numbers and it's like 98.7%, or some astronomical number, that somebody who actually starts four hours later gets to win the game. So I think when people are hearing what you're saying, I don't want them to tune their ears out. I don't want them to turn their ears off. I want them to hear this point, that you're not saying something about somebody’s, necessarily their moral behavior when you're talking about structure. You're talking about 400 years of American history, where men and women of color, particularly the black community, and then we could even add that in later into gender inequality. Look at men versus women. But you're talking about 400 years in the black community where you are not permitted, by and large, to participate in any of the economic life. And so now that's what you're getting at that you've got these structural issues, you've got time bound issues that have to be overcome. So how should we be taking that historical racial disparity into account today? How are you doing that today at the Urban League in Kansas City, to address equal opportunity?
Gwendolyn: Well, one thing just to your point, and thank you, it's an excellent analogy to make because it is difficult for people to really get their arms around it when we use language like structural racism or systemic issues, it sounds very academic, and you make it very real. So basically, it's just like imagining if you're in a race and everybody has a starting line and you're several yards back, in order for you to catch up, you're going to have to run a whole lot faster than everybody else and sustain that for an extended time to catch up, it almost practically defies the laws of physics. So what we're wanting to do is while we address the immediate needs of folks that we're serving, is to also figure out how to accelerate the supports. So basically, you have to invest more, it's like triage. If you go into any emergency room, and you need medical assistance, they're going to triage based on that need. So if I walk in and I have a broken arm and you're walking in at the same time, and you're suffering from a heart attack or something, they're going to invest a whole lot more medical attention and resources in trying to save your life than they are in trying to address my fractured arm. And so the same approach has to be given to what we need to be doing in the central city and doing with the populations that you serve through Reconciliation Services. The people who need the most help, need to be given more resources, not less. So you can't mitigate these issues saying that everybody's going to be treated the same, we're going to allocate resources equally across all of the six different councilmanic districts and we're going to give every community the exact same treatment when everybody's issue is not the same. So what we try to do is look at that and how we serve, how we approach our work, and how we approach the advocacy around civil rights, racial justice, and equity.
Fr. Justin: I know you stood up publicly and supported Robbie Makinen and KCATA for finding money in the city budget to be able to provide free transit, which is a great leveler for a lot of folks in the workforce who want to be working but have access issues and other things. Now, look, I want to make sure we get to some of the personal side because you and I could talk forever about structural racism and barriers. And if you want to find out more, go check out ULKC.org. It's a good portal to begin. You can springboard from there to lots of other places. But again, I'm talking with Gwendolyn Grant. She's my guest, the President and CEO of the Urban League. And Gwen, what I want to get into now is about leadership and really trying to help our audience learn to lead and have greater social impact. And you said something a minute ago about how we're going to model moving forward, how we have to live that out. And so as a leader, how do we model moving from discomfort to comfort in our social leadership?
Gwendolyn: Well, I'm in with that discomfort all the time. Leading a civil rights organization, you create discomfort actually. You have to almost create discomfort to push for the change that we want to see in policies and practices and the improvements to bridge the racial divide and the economic divide. So for me personally, I've had to learn to be comfortable with discomfort. And I've had to learn to know that in order to bring about change, you have to disrupt the status quo. I often think about the Frederick Douglass quote about power concedes nothing without a demand, it never has and it never will. And so if you're in a civil rights space, you see, from my leadership, there's always this push, there's always is an uncomfortable position to be in because for the most part, while folks I believe are inherently good people, most people are good people and want to believe that everyone is treated fairly. It requires pushing in ways that make people uncomfortable. And then what I would say if you're trying to grow your leadership capacity in dealing with this is you got to lean into discomfort and you've got to be okay with the fact that in order for us to get to the next level, we're all going to have to be out of our comfort zones. We're going to have to open up to information that doesn't always feel good and we're going to have to be very introspective about how we're showing up as leaders. How do we bring people along requires that extra work and so it's first we'd certainly have to know who you are as a person and how you show up and be open to change.
Fr. Justin: I talk about often this idea of moving away from charity, moving away from charitable intentions, and getting to integrated priorities. Something that you said that I'd love for you to unpack a little bit, and if you could make it practical for somebody who's not the President and CEO of a civil rights organization, because you're kind of at a bar way up here. You're so comfortable with the uncomfortable that you are able to unpack the uncomfortable with a sort of power that gives a lot of air of confidence. But I really want to, if we're going to make a sea change in some of the issues that you focus on, we've got to have a tipping point of leaders who, like you said, lean into the discomfort. So think about that middle manager, think about that hiring manager, think about that person who's not leading a nonprofit civil rights organization, what are maybe two or three tips that you would give them about how to lean into discomfort in their life to have greater social impact?
Gwendolyn: So that's a really tough question, Father, because it certainly is different for everyone. I think first, I would go back to getting comfortable with who you are, because if you are someone who if you have a very high need to be liked to be accepted, then there's always going to be some higher degree of risk when you begin to think about what are you going to do to try to change a particular situation as a middle manager or whatever. So when I encourage people to do it, and I've done a lot of leadership development training and what I encourage folks to do is to try to figure out how to lead within your domain. So within your sphere of influence, what can you get done? And to have a really good understanding of how to lead within your domain and how to lead without power. And when I say that how to lead without power, I'm talking about how to lead without positional power, because we all have power. So power is something you have to recognize you have and then know how to use it. But everybody has it. So you have to choose to embrace the power that you hold within any given situation. And so in that it requires you assessing that situation, and understanding what do I have the power to influence here and recognizing what you don't, so you don't put time and energy into something over which you have no control or power. You focus that energy and channel it into those things that you can do and you can change. And as you do that, you begin to expand your circle of influence and the impact that you can have just a little bit at a time. But it requires really being socially conscious and aware, and certainly self aware, and learning how to build your own confidence in that space.
Fr. Justin: I like a lot that you brought out that you may not have positional power, but that if you become self aware and become socially conscious, that gets us back to the data, and then to the internal work that we have to do as leaders as we strive to have a greater social impact through our leadership. You might not be the CEO of the company, you might not be the hiring manager who can actualize whatever that you feel like should be done but you do have power. This is what you're saying. And if you learn to use it and to move from discomfort to comfort or learning to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, then you can make a huge impact. Gwen, I really appreciate you sharing that. It's a good reminder for me, and for all of us. I want to give you the final word as we wrap up our time together. What would you leave folks with who are listening to this podcast and who want to make a change, want to be social leaders, but they're not quite sure where they're going to begin? What would you like to leave us with?
Gwendolyn: Well, I think I'm really big on first understanding I think everybody can make a contribution. And no matter how small or how large, it's important that you make that contribution. And so what I would encourage people to do is to really think about where's my passion? What am I most concerned about or one that I want to change most, and then take a deep dive into that, like find that one thing, and then learn everything you can about it. And show up and share your gifts and talents to make a difference. And don't be concerned about how big of a difference or how much money, it’s not always about money. It's about time. It's about what you can bring to improve the situation.
Fr. Justin: Alright, well, if you're listening to the podcast, and you want to become a social leader, go back and rewind because Gwen has dropped a whole bunch of great tips and tricks and ideas and some really important things. I like what you said about dive deep, get into it, really understand that one issue that breaks your heart and then show up and do something. So Gwen, thank you for leaving us with that. And I want to make sure, again, that everybody has your website, if they want to reach out to you, if they want to help fund the State of Black Kansas City book and make a donation, they can do that online. You can help make sure that we have the quality and comprehensive data that we need to be able to continue the work of the Urban League especially right here in Kansas City, but all across the nation. Go to ULKC.org. Again, my guest today was Gwendolyn Grant, President and CEO of the Urban League Kansas City. Gwen, thank you, it's been an honor to get to talk to you about leadership and about all that you do with the Urban League. And thank you, for your advocacy for the community and all that you've given us in Kansas City.
Gwendolyn: Thank you and thanks Reconciliation Services for all that you do to serve Kansas City. We sincerely appreciate you and thank you so much for this opportunity.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. Hang tight with me. I'll be right back to you. Hey, everyone who's listening to the show, I want to make sure that you know about something that is coming up that I'm super excited about. If you want to go further with the kind of things that Gwen was talking about today, if you want to have greater social impact in your leadership wherever you are, Reconciliation Services is about to launch an e-course called Social Leader Essentials. It's coming up. It will be launched in the next month and you're going to want to stay tuned. So if you go to TheSocialLeader.org, you'll be able to sign up, get on the mailing list and be one of the first ones who knows when this course launches. It's going to be an incredible course to give you the kickstart that you need to become someone who can have the kind of social impact that Gwen was talking about today, no matter where you work and what you do. In addition to that, if you're someone who's looking for a job and you're looking to stand out from the sea of similarity, with 33 million people looking to apply for the job that you want, you're going to want to take this e-course. Go to TheSocialLeader.org, answer a few quick questions, one of our team is going to reach out to you and make sure that you know when that launches. So once again, thank you for joining me today for episode nine of The Social Leader where my guest was Gwendolyn Grant of the Urban League Kansas City. Today was presented by Reconciliation Services and sponsored by Thelma’s Kitchen. I look forward to seeing you every Tuesday at 12:30 live on YouTube and on Facebook. Make sure to smash the like button, subscribe, hit the little bell so you know every time we go live, and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. We look forward to speaking with you again next week. Until next time, learn to lead with greater social impact.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Valerie Nicholson-Watson, President & CEO of Harvesters - The Community Food Network, about food insecurity, leadership accountability in times of need, and the role of innovation and inspiration when facing growing community need.
EPISODE 8 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: On April 21st, 2020, the United Nations projected that because of COVID-19 the number of people that are facing food insecurity, severe food shortage worldwide, could actually double to more than 265 million people. That same week in the United States, the five week total of jobless claims rose to a staggering 26 million, pushing millions more people into food insecurity. Hi, I'm Justin Mathews. I am your host for The Social Leader, episode number eight. Today my guest is Valerie Nicholson Watson, who is the CEO of Harvesters. Welcome to this episode. We're going to go deep on food insecurity, on innovation, on creativity, and on leadership. Stay tuned.
Fr. Justin: My guest today is Valerie Nicholson Watson. She is the CEO of Harvesters. Valerie joined Harvesters in 2013 and has had various roles including serving now as the leader of the entire organization for the region. But prior to joining Harvesters, Valerie was a leader and multiple nonprofits, served on multiple boards, most notably was the President and CEO of the Niles Home for Children. Valerie also currently serves as a Senior Board member for Nonprofit Connect here in Kansas City. I am very pleased today to introduce to you Valerie Nicholson Watson. Hello Valerie and welcome to The Social Leader podcast.
Valerie Nicholson Watson: Hello, Father Justin. Thank you so much for having me.
Fr. Justin: It is an honor to have you here. I want to just jump in and ask you, did I miss anything in your bio? Anything that you hoped that I would bring out that would let folks know a little bit more about you, Valerie?
Valerie: Well, I've been in the nonprofit arena since 1999 and I think that was probably one of the most significant career moves that I ever made. Because there is nothing better, for someone who has to work for a living, there's nothing better than being able to use your gifts and talents to help others. And that's what a nonprofit allows you to do. And I'm just so grateful for it.
Fr. Justin: Well, we're grateful that you chose to dedicate your time, your talent, your energy, to being a social leader. We're going to get today into everything that we can in the time that we've got about food insecurity, particularly here in the Kansas City area and in the region, but generally across the United States. But we also want to learn from you, since you've been leading nonprofits and boards for so long, about how we can learn to lead with greater social impact. And we're going to get to that. But first and foremost, Val, I've got to jump in and just ask you, can you help our listeners understand what is causing food insecurity? We live in a first world nation where it seems like there's food everywhere and plenty for people but can you help us understand, maybe even tell us a story about why food insecurity exists and why is it such a problem in our first world context?
Valerie: There's so much misinformation, I think, about food insecurity, and why people are food insecure. So even before this COVID crisis, Harvesters was serving over 360,000 people throughout our service area. And these are people for the most part, when you look at their households, they have at least one member in that household who is working. But at the end of the day, you also have some households where you have multiple people working, sometimes multiple jobs, but if your income does not provide enough resources for you to live a modest, stable life, something has to give. And when you make those choices between: do I pay my rent or mortgage? Do I pay my utilities? Do I buy medicine? Do I purchase food? Food often gets pushed to the side and people go hungry and they don't necessarily know where their next meal will come from. That means they’re food insecure. So sometimes we villainize the poor, and we villainize those people who sometimes need some assistance, but these are people just like the rest of us. Either you have the resources or you don't, they happen not to.
Fr. Justin: I think when when you talk about hunger in the United States, I'll be honest, a lot of people that I've talked to about poverty, even here in Kansas City, one of the first things that comes to people's mind is people are lazy, they're not working, they don't want to work, welfare, etc. Help us to dispel those notions because you just talked about the socio economic realities of 10s of thousands of people in our region, if not more. Tell me a story that helps me understand and helps our listeners understand a little bit better what you're talking about when it comes to food, insecure families and why food insecurity exists.
Valerie: I'll share a story that was shared with us from someone who was able to participate in one of our mobile distributions and this one shared that her husband had not lost his job, but his hours of employment had been cut back drastically.
Fr. Justin: Very common right now, very common.
Valerie: And at the same time she needed eye surgery and received that eye surgery. So that created some medical bills that they were not anticipating. So when you combine the fact that the income had been reduced significantly, with the fact that now they have an unexpected medical bill, you see the strain that that puts on an already strained budget. I'm just thankful, very, very thankful for the safety net here in our metropolitan area, and particularly the 760 organizations that make up Harvesters, the Community Food Network. Many of these organizations provide services in addition to food. I'm just happy that this network is here to provide assistance for people in need.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, Reconciliation Services is privileged to be a part of the Harvesters Network. In fact, I was going through our minutes and some old notes and it looks like actually we were involved in one way or another with Harvesters even back into the 1990s. And certainly now with Thelma’s Kitchen, we would not be serving the hundreds and hundreds of people a day that we serve now if it weren't for Harvesters. Like I said, we're honored to be a part of your network here in the Kansas City region. I want to talk a little bit about that social safety net that you mentioned, though, because there was this act that just was passed on March 18. I'm not sure that it got enough attention but the Families First Coronavirus Response Act allowed the USDA and states to have a little bit more funding and flexibility as it implemented SNAP, which if you don't know what SNAP is, that's the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. And it's one of those key programs that helps families to afford food when they’re food insecure or those families like you're talking about who find themselves unexpectedly without the ability to buy food. In this act, Valerie, if I understand, there were kind of four key provisions. Number one, that all eligible households can apply for the SNAP maximum monthly benefit. Secondly, those in-person appointments that people had to have to recertify and to enroll particularly into WIC, which is Women, Infant, and Children's program, that's been waived. And then thirdly, that work and work training requirements, this is a controversial one, but those work requirements for SNAP have been temporarily suspended. And then lastly, of course, this one directly impacts you. This act, the Families First Coronavirus Response Act actually increased funding to local food banks and to students who are on reduced meals. Now, having gone through all of that, and by way of doing that, I'm hoping to educate our audience just a little bit about just some of the things that are happening at the federal level, how did you see that act impact you at Harvesters? Was there increased funding? Was there some change in operations? Tell me more about what the local impact of that has been.
Valerie: So the federal government has really enacted several different acts all with the purpose of responding to COVID-19. One of the most important things that they've done as it relates to food banks and hunger relief, is the treatment of TEFAP, the commodities that food banks across the country distribute in many, many states.
Fr. Justin: Can you break down that acronym for me? What does that stand for?
Valerie: Temporary Emergency Food Assistance Program.
Fr. Justin: Just want to make sure that everyone knows what that is. Not everybody knows the jargon, so carry on.
Valerie: So I'll take one step back and say, for every meal that Harvesters and our network can provide, the federal government can provide nine. So they are an important partner in this fight against hunger. And so when we look at programs such as TEFAP, that provides commodity foods to people across this country, there are some very stringent guidelines to who can receive the food based on income eligibility and which agencies can actually distribute the food based on their own certification. So loosening those guidelines has been tremendous for us because it really allowed us to provide food on our mobiles, and this is first quality food. Ten later on, they initiated the disaster household distribution program, and that allows us to provide food to people without certifying their income. They simply have to make an attestation that they don't meet or they don't exceed the income guidelines. So that opened up hundreds of thousands of pounds of food to augment the food that we were able to distribute. Very important at this point in time when we see our shelf stable food donations, just really plummeting.
So when we talk about SNAP as well, Harvesters does outreach for SNAP in Kansas and Missouri. We actually have a hotline that people can call. They can get more information about SNAP to preliminarily see if they would be eligible. And I will say that during this pandemic calls to our hotline have increased significantly. Many of the people who are calling do not meet the guidelines so they have opted, of course, not to submit applications. But when we talk about SNAP and through Families First trying to raise the minimum amount of assistance that people receive with it, and then the pandemic SNAP trying to actually increase the ceiling for what people are eligible for, it makes so much difference. And it makes the difference in the lives of the families who receive SNAP, they are able to actually go to the grocery store and shop for the specific foods that they need. But we often overlook the economic impact that SNAP has on the community, because those dollars are being spent at the grocery stores. So it actually helps or contributes to the strength of our economy. If you lower SNAP, then that's less money in this economy. So grocers are able to hire people and people are able to have jobs in the food industry, because those snap dollars are there.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you know, when you talk about families and the need and the SNAP dollars, I want to focus in on one particular survey. There was a survey recently of mothers and young children and it said that 17.4% of mothers with children ages 12 and under reported at the start of the pandemic, not even since it's happened, that there were children in their household who weren't eating enough because they just couldn't afford food. I mean, so obviously, Va,l with what you're saying food insecurity has, I'm sure, deteriorated even more in households with children. Are you able to confirm that? Are we seeing the same thing here in the Kansas City region as well?
Valerie: We clearly are. Our member agencies are reporting an increase in the number of people that they are serving. And what they're sharing with us is that many of the people they are seeing have never had to access emergency food assistance. So these are people who typically had enough revenue so that they didn't need assistance, but likely have lost their job or seeing their employment hours reduced as a result of this health crises. And so now they're in a position where they're making tough choices. And again, I'm just grateful that one of the tough choices they may not have to make is “do I skip the meals so that I can feed my children?”
Fr. Justin: One of the things that I think we've all been impacted by is when you go to the grocery store, even if you're not like one of those families that can't afford the meal, you go to the grocery store and it's not just toilet paper that you can't find. There's all sorts of things. I just recently was at the grocery store with my family, with my wife. And noticed that the whole meat counter was virtually empty. And of course, that goes back to food insecurity as well as to food safety issues rather in the meat production plants that we've been hearing about in the news. But in the work that you're doing, you rely on a huge national supply chain, if I'm not mistaken? Have you seen farmers or that supply chain undermined because of the COVID-19 situation? From what I've read, Valerie, there are farmers of all sizes across the United States that are even having to dump their crops or destroy their harvest because there aren't enough people to buy it. Is there a disruption in the food chain that you're experiencing? And even more than that why are farmers dumping crops or destroying crops when they could be giving it to organizations like yours? Illuminate that food chain access issue for us a little bit.
Valerie: So there is absolutely a disruption in the food chain. I know this in terms of how it is impacting this organization and our sister food banks across the country. One of the first changes that we noticed was that rush for retail. Everybody was buying, buying, buying, and that really put a strain on our food retailers and we saw that some products were being sold faster than they could be manufactured. And what we saw through Feeding America during this time is that the portals that we are able to purchase food through, we saw that many of our choices were disappearing. I think it went from something like 920 odd choices down to 700. Because those products that were not in high demand were being put to the side. And those that were in high demand were more readily available. But right now what we're seeing is that the disruption has, in particular, created issues even for us as our donated food has disappeared, particularly shelf stable food, I should say. And so we're being forced to purchase food. And when we purchase food, you first have to find it, and that's not always as easy as someone might think it is. Then we are getting delivery dates that are four to eight weeks out from time of purchase. And in some instances, and this was more so early on in the crisis, you'd place an order. And then the next thing you know, they cancel that order saying they can't get the food. In terms of meat, and I'm not an expert, I just know what I read, but in terms of meat, particularly with so many of the packing or processing plants being shut down, then you have that backlog from the farmers. And if they don't have somewhere to process that meat, then what do they do with it? And they have their supply chain in terms of the livestock that's coming in. And so even when you hear about farmers perhaps having to euthanize chickens or pigs or something, they can't give it to us if we can't get it processed.
Fr. Justin: There's a very complex food distribution system in what you're talking about. But when I look at the work that you're doing at Harvesters, one of the news reports that I read said that on March 23, Harvesters saw its single largest daily order ever in its 40 year history. And then I saw on the news just a couple days ago that Harvesters this week distributed with its volunteers, the largest single distribution you've ever done, over 100,000 pounds of food, nearly 8,000 people or 1,600 households. You're moving a ton of food into the market and yet it doesn't feel like we make a dent. I'd love to have you help us to understand, what are we going to do about the systemic issues? Not just the farmers who don't have anywhere to take things because of COVID, but it feels like we give out food all of the time. There's free meals. There's great programs like Harvesters. But what are we going to do to be able to get to the place where people have enough food and are able to access that? What innovations or what changes do we need to bring about? And has anything new come about in your leadership as a result of the COVID situation, something you've learned?
Valerie: Well, Harvesters mission is to feed hungry people today, and to work to end hunger tomorrow. And so one of the things that we rely on is just the data that we get back from our agencies and the people that they serve. We know that the people who are food insecure on a regular basis, they typically have some of those underlying medical issues that sometimes put their ability to work in jeopardy. And you think about things like hypertension, diabetes, high blood pressure, those kinds of things that to maintain good health, people really need a good diet. And so one of the things that we've started to do is to work with healthcare providers to help them help their patients integrate good nutrition into their health maintenance.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I love that saying that food is medicine. And in fact, at Thelma's Kitchen here, supported by Harvesters, we've actually been experimenting on a small level with Truman Medical. What would it look like if we actually had doctors prescribing healthy food? Have you guys ever worked with any medical institutions to try to get in deep on the prescription side rather than on the reactive side?
Valerie: So that is absolutely what we are doing and we have partnerships across our service area right now. We're going into our fourth year and the response from healthcare providers has been tremendous. It's interesting, though, that there are so many different responses. They are as simple as sharing a card with a patient that shows them how to access our pantry finder, to actually the medical providers purchasing food that we then package in prescriptive boxes so that they have it available for their patients. In even different organizations, sponsoring kids cafes and that sort of thing, so that when children come in for their pediatric health checks, not only can the patient eat but if there are siblings, the siblings can eat as well. But I talked a little bit about Harvesters, the community network, and the organizations that make up the network. Harvesters is a food bank and we have very pointedly stayed in that lane. We provide the food and we provide food and nutrition education in a lot of different ways. But there are member agencies in this network who do things such as job training and educational assistance, housing and utility assistance, those other kinds of support that people need to help them stabilize their lives. Social justice is something that this country has been seeking for a very long time as is economic justice. I don't know that I have the answers. But I think we all know what it takes, what a family has to have in order again. I'm not asking for the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, just a stable, modest lifestyle.
Fr. Justin: What you're talking about is that basic understanding of the social determinants of health, that if we want to address hunger, we actually have to address healthcare, we have to address education, we have to address the neighborhood and the built environment. We have to address the ability to eat and education. And, Valerie, one of the things I was thinking about this morning and preparing to talk to you was the fact that the COVID-19 pandemic, it's actually hit all five of those. You've got the educational system completely shut down and now stripped down into this homeschool methodology. You've got neighborhoods that already had environmental issues or access to healthy food issues. Now those social safety nets that keep neighborhoods afloat and the ability to get together and to build those interactions that break down isolation, those things have been disrupted. You could go down that list and food access and food insecurity is really just one of them. But what you're saying is that the number of food insecure people will continue to grow, it sounds like until we actually address the issue holistically. And so what would be the role for a food bank? If you're staying in your lane, like you said, what is your role if it's catalytic or if it's from a policy perspective, to try to address those other domains of the social determinants of health?
Valerie: One of the things that we do and and will continue to do is to partner with those organizations that are providing those types of services that help people regain or gain their economic independence so to speak. And so that's one of the things that we can do. Our partnerships with healthcare providers, there's clearly something else we can do. Because when you don't have your health, it's very difficult for you to maintain a job, for you to really prosper and grow into a job, or even to do well in school. So food plays a vital role. We can't downplay that. Let me backup just a little bit. People typically know what they need and I think we are often ready to prescribe what we think they need. And so one of the things that we can do is to just listen to them and ask them what they need in terms of what will it take for you to create stability in your life. So that's one of the things that we can do. But when we think about food, you feed a person today, but that's one meal. They need three meals a day, every day. So that is why we often find ourselves saying, well, you know, we provide so much food, but it seems like a never ending effort, and to some degree, it is a never ending effort, as long as humans have to eat. The gap in the number of meals that people miss, even before COVID our national network was providing food to over 37 million people.
Fr. Justin: And when you hear numbers like that, it's difficult to sort of quantify what that means. I mean, just the other day, Valerie, I was here at Reconciliation Services and one of our case managers told me a story about a mother and a father, who had two or three kids, I can't remember which, but they were trying to feed their kids three times a day, seven days a week. But in order to do that they actually were skipping and eating one meal every other day. And so when you think about those staggering multi million person numbers that you're throwing out, it's hard to sort of personalize those and get them drilled down at the personal level with individual families. I'm thinking about the number of leaders who are listening to this podcast either now while we're broadcasting or later, and who want to do something. So first of all, how can people engage with Harvesters in the region? What can they do to help solve the food insecurity problem?
Valerie: Right now, I think for something like food, you certainly have to address the immediate needs of people, because if they don't have food, then it's very difficult to think beyond just meeting that very basic need. So in normal times, I would say give voice. We talked a lot about the federal nutrition programs. We need to make sure that those programs are robust enough to assist people in need and that we don't make changes that cause harm to the people who rely on them. We ask our community to give time, particularly through either volunteering here at Harvesters or volunteering at one of the hundreds of organizations and even other nonprofits in this city. We ask them to give food because that's the core of our business. And we ask them to give money because we have to keep the lights on and get the food to where it's needed most. Right now our volunteer capacity is diminished just because we are following mandates in terms of the size of gatherings, but this won't last always.
Fr Justin: Is that going to change as the city reopens with this 10/10/10 rule in Kansas City? Do you have a plan for when more people will be able to come back and keep them safe as they’re volunteering?
Valerie: Absolutely. For the time being, clearly, we are getting our guidance from the city, the state, and our local health departments. And so we will always meet or exceed their recommendations. But as soon as we are able to resume normal operations that will be at a point in time where we believe based on the information that we have and the guidance that the professionals are giving us to bring folks back in so that they can work in a safe environment.
Fr. Justin: So even though you don't yet have a date for folks to be able to come back and volunteer, they can run food drives at home, in their neighborhood, and bring that food down. And they can donate. I want to make sure that everybody is able to support you, so you can go to Harvesters.org. You can donate, you can sign up to volunteer for when they do open again, and you can also get involved and get educated. I think one of the things that I've really enjoyed about this conversation is that you've helped me to get a little bit more educated about the kind of systemic issues in food insecurity, underlying issues that drive food insecurity, and you've also helped me understand a little bit more about the immediate need. I always end every podcast, Valerie, with this question. There are a lot of leaders who are listening who are wanting to learn to lead with greater social impact wherever they are. What do those who are listening need to do? They might not all be able to join nonprofits. They might not all be able to do what you talked about early on. But what can they do? And how can leaders increase their social impact to help solve the food insecurity crisis in Kansas City and in the United States?
Valerie: We talked a little bit about it. First and foremost, I think is just being aware of the issue and some of those underlying causes, and then determining what area of this whole aspect of food insecurity you would like to be involved in. You won't conquer all of the ills or issues in one day, but if you focus in one area, then clearly you can make a difference. But also, just listening to the people that you want to provide assistance to. If you listen and try to meet their needs, versus trying to meet your own goals and objectives, then I think you’re head and shoulders above the rest. It's all about the people we serve and if we keep them front and center, we will make the decisions and take the actions that are necessary to make a difference in their lives.
Fr. Justin: Valerie, I really appreciate you, as we end our time together, helping all of us to remember that we got to keep a focus as leaders and focus isn't just on the ROI of our company, right? But the focus can also be at the same time, what social impact do I want to have as a leader, and getting that focus, getting educated. And then what you said is critically important, that idea of listening first, not rushing in to serve. That's actually how things get turned upside down. When we waste money, waste time, waste effort, trying to give a community what we think they need, rather than actually embracing humility and the vulnerability and taking the time to go and to listen to the community first and ask, what is it that you really need and how can I help? I love that you brought out those two things because I think they are key aspects of what leaders need to do in order to become social leaders. So Valerie, I really appreciate the time that you've given us today on The Social Leader podcast. Is there any last word or any final thought that you want to leave us with as we wrap up our time today?
Valerie: Just a couple things. I do want to commend the people throughout our metropolitan area because we have some very, very generous people who do what they can. And that's the thing about nonprofits and the work that we do. Nothing is too much and nothing is too little when it's on the part of an individual. But then I'll also say how much, Father Justin, that I appreciate you and the work that you do and the innovative thinking that you bring to the work and the way in which you're able to bring so many different people of our community together right on 31st and Troost, really the heart of our city, if you think about it. And so I just admire the work that you do. I am inspired, and you give me some great ideas.
Fr. Justin: Well, thank you for the compliments and to be honest with you, it isn't me. It's the team that we have at Reconciliation Services. And it's not just us, Valerie, I mean it. We could not do Thelma’s Kitchen or what we do without Harvesters and, just like you, without hundreds and hundreds of volunteers. And I want to encourage everybody one more time, go to Harvesters.org. Check out the work that Valerie is doing. Check out the work of Harvesters. If your heart is burdened with the food insecurity in our region and across our country, now's the time. If you've ever wanted to increase your social impact as a leader, this is a great way to begin. Go to Harvesters.org, give as generously as you can, and by that, get active, get involved as a social leader. Valerie, thanks again for being my guest on The Social Leader podcast today.
Valerie: Thank you!
Fr. Justin: Well, friends, I want to wrap up our time just by reminding you that The Social Leader is presented by Reconciliation Services and sponsored by Thelma's Kitchen. If you want to get involved at Thelma's Kitchen right here at 31st and Troost, you can make a dent in the food insecurity in Kansas City. We are open five days a week, Monday through Friday from 11am to 2pm. Normally, Thelma’s Kitchen is a restaurant and we bring everybody together to eat a five star Yelp-rated meal for lunch on Troost Avenue, but right now because of the pandemic, of course, we're closed. We're social distancing. We are looking forward to being able to open again, but right now we still need your help. Since the beginning of January, Thelma’s Kitchen has had a 347% increase in the number of meals served right out of our front door. If you go to Harvesters.org, you will see Reconciliation Services and Thelma's Kitchen as a key part of their community network. And if you want to get involved with Thelma’s Kitchen, in particular, go to ThelmasKitchen.org, find out how you can volunteer or sponsor a meal. We really appreciate your help. Hey, as we wrap up The Social Leader, I want to again bring back that challenge that Valerie gave us: to take the time to learn, to take the time to find a focus, to let our hearts break with the things that break God's heart, to become more vulnerable. And then to begin to listen before we rush in, to begin as leaders to really listen deeply to the community and figure out how no matter what you do, no matter whether you're a foreman on a construction company, or the CEO of a huge company, or a stay at home parent, how you can become a social leader in this region. If you'd like to find out more about how to become a social leader and what the key fundamentals of a social leader are, I want to ask you to go to TheSocialLeader.org. It's a brand new e-course that Reconciliation Services is getting ready to launch in the next couple of weeks. It's going to give you the three essential skills that you're going to need to begin the process of becoming a social leader, deepening your impact, and growing your leadership influence in the community to solve the social problems that you care the most about. So go to TheSocialLeader.org. Once again, thank you for joining us today on The Social Leader podcast. I look forward to seeing you next time.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Qiana Thomason, CEO of the Health Forward Foundation. They discuss the importance of understanding the social, environmental, and economic determinants of health and the need to intentionally build equity into our structures and systems.
EPISODE 7 — TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Well, hello, my friends. Welcome back to The Social Leader podcast. The pursuit of health equity is rooted in over 100 years of data that shows that the morbidity and mortality rates for poor Americans, and in particular Americans who are people of color, are significantly worse than for those of the white mainstream. Welcome to the seventh episode of The Social Leader where today I will be talking with my guest Qiana Thomason, who is the CEO of the Health Forward Foundation. We're going to be talking about innovation. We're going to be talking about health equity. We're going to be talking about health care philanthropy and social leadership. Don't go away. This is going to be a critically important conversation today.
Fr. Justin: Well, again, my guest today is Qiana Thomason. Let me tell you a little bit about Qiana because her resume is incredible. She is a native of Kansas City and she currently serves as the CEO of the Health Forward Foundation. During her time there, she has already begun to bring wonderful thought leadership, including right when COVID-19 happened she put out an article on health equity. That is the reason I wanted to get her on the program so quickly today. We're going to get to those topics but before her time at the Health Forward Foundation as the CEO, she filled various leadership roles, eight year tenure at Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas City, including being the Vice President of Community Health. She also spent eight years at Swope Health Services in Kansas City. And finally she had the role as Director of Clinical Operations, Behavioral Health, and Program Manager for the Kansas City Mental Health Court. It is my honor to welcome to the program, Qiana Thomason. Good morning and welcome.
Qiana Thomason: Thank you so much. Good morning, Father Justin. Thanks for having me on.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. I want to tell everyone today's conversation is being sponsored by Reconciliation Services. You can find out more about RS at rs3101.org. Qiana, as I said, you have an unbelievable resume and I'd love to know, did I leave anything out? What don't we know about Qiana that we need to know?
Qiana: Well, I think it's important to know that I am born and bred right here in Kansas City. I grew up in the third district in Kansas City. I was a benefactor and a recipient of Kansas City's wonderful safety net system for folks who live in marginalized conditions as I did when I grew up, and I just count it as such a blessing to be able to serve and use my career to be able to give back to a system that blessed me so much.
Fr. Justin: Well, you've done that mightily. And to be honest as a partner, Reconciliation Services is a deep partner with Health Forward Foundation. You guys helped us launch Thelma’s Kitchen. You've helped us launch our men's mental health program called the R.E.V.E.A.L. (Restore Engage Value Encourage Act Lead) program. You all have helped us with everything, so many years now. I'm looking forward to continuing that partnership. And I think, as we talked about the other day on the phone when we got to have our first long conversation, I'm super excited about where you're wanting to take Health Forward Foundation. Today, I really want to focus in on what this current pandemic has highlighted. Because as you wrote in your essay, which was so wonderful that you put that out right at the tip of the spear, the COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the inequities in our healthcare system, in the safety net system that you talked about. And in the Kansas City region in particular, you've talked about the fact that these disparities stem really from pre-existing income inequalities, as well as inequalities to access to healthcare, and then you also mentioned occupational segregation. And as the old saying goes, when America catches a cold, people of color catch pneumonia, and that has never been more easy to see than right now. So I recognize that I'm sure you have a lot of priorities in your new role as CEO at the Health Forward Foundation, but given our situation, what's your top ranking priority during this COVID-19 pandemic and what do we need to do to address it, Qiana?
Qiana: So you hit the nail on the head in so many areas for Health Forward Foundation, being a public charity, deeply steeped, in this community, our first priority is to partner with and stabilize, and as best we can, help recover as quickly as they can our grantees and our partners. And so right out the gate, we wanted to make sure that our grant making was responsive, that we got advanced payments out the door quickly, that we converted all current grantees to core operating funds to use the funds flexibly how you needed it, that we relaxed or decreased reporting requirements, all those types of processes and issues that our partners just don't have time to be thinking about in this pandemic as they serve the people in our community. In addition to that, we are expanding our attention to emergency funding. So a lot of emergency funding has gone out the door. We reserved up to $3.7 million for safety net medical behavioral health providers, as well as essential services like childcare, food, and all those types of insecurities that people were already struggling with that this pandemic really just exacerbated. But as we pivot from response to more focus on resiliency, it will be important that we go upstream and work with our partners, our grantees, our policymakers, and a whole host of stakeholders across this community, public and private, to focus on issues even outside of healthcare that impact health and health outcomes, issues like transportation, issues like affordable housing, livable wage. There are a plethora of issues that impact the daily lives of our communities and we know that it's on us in partnership with other folks in this community to drive those upstream changes for health equity.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, and by the way, I think that the Forward Foundation, as well as really the entire philanthropic community, moved with unprecedented speed. In the 22 years of nonprofit leadership that I've been a part of, I've never seen a response like that of the Kansas City, philanthropic community and Health Forward Foundation again, huge partner of Reconciliation Services. And so my hat's off to you and to the entire philanthropic community. Because without you I think a lot of us who are on the frontlines would absolutely be in the tubes right now. And that would mean that literally, for example, the 5,000 people a year the Reconciliation Services is caring for and walking with, we wouldn't be here without you. But what you're bringing about in your perspective, as you really shift to talk about those root causes and those barriers, it's really highlighting that not only are there structural barriers, but specifically there are socioeconomic structural barriers at every level of our society. So for example, coronavirus economy. We know it's going to devastate the after economy, it's going to affect people who can least afford it. 53 million Americans, about 44% of US workers, are making a median of $10.22 cents an hour or about $24,000 a year. You can barely make it on that. And as I prepared to talk to you today, I had scenarios of our clients playing through my mind like, what would happen if this snowball began? You have a low wage worker who doesn't have paid sick leave. Maybe they’re hourly. They don't have benefits. Maybe they miss work due to a family member or a child being ill, then they lose that crucial income. That can be the difference between making rent or not. Maybe they become homeless. You run the risk of being let go from your job and just it's snowballs, snowballs, and it's one thing and one moment that can make that happen. So here's the question that I have for you. How do you plan, as an innovative leader who gets these things innately, to lead the Health Forward Foundation to address these structural socioeconomic barriers and health equity issues in our region? What are you going to do to pivot? Or what things are you exploring right now?
Qiana: Well, I think it's first it's important as leaders and as organizations that we really take the time to ground ourselves and how we got here, and not to the point that we're fixating on the problem, but it's important to have a healthy appreciation for the problem to understand how to fix it. So from my vantage point, and many others share it, inequities, not just in health but in life, are typically the result of two things in this country and that's structural racism and systemic racism as well as income inequality and the wealth gap that we struggle with as a country. And so with those root cause factors in mind, I think we must as leaders and as organizations focus our strategies and our tactics around being just as intentional at building equity into our systems and our structures, because there was a great deal of intentionality to build inequity in.
And we have to apply the same level of resolve when we consider the different systems that influence that. And for us, we know that healthcare is largely influenced by socioeconomic and environmental factors, as you pointed out. So 80% of our health outcomes are driven by the social determinants of health. I prefer to say the social influences of health because people are resilient and they can transcend their environment and their circumstances. And so those influencers are 40% behavioral, 30% socioeconomic, your education, your income, all those different types of factors, as well as about 10% environment, violence, nutritional deserts in your community that contribute to obesity, and poor food intake, and all the chronic conditions that we know really were the underlying issues around COVID-19 and contributed to our over-representation as people of color in confirmed cases, as well as mortality. So when we think about that very broad space of the social determinants of health and economic inclusion, and all the things that contribute to it, we have to ask ourselves, what is our unique position to engage in community in this space? Where can we be most impactful? So as a team, we began having those conversations prior to this crisis and the perverse gift of the crisis was that it really underscored for our team, Health Forward Foundation, that it was time for us to commit more than ever to really digging in and applying that lens that thinks outside the box of healthcare, and considers those social, environmental, and economic factors that drive our health. So we'll be spending a lot of time the rest of this year into next year with our partners, with our Board, with our community advisory council talking through what's our unique differentiator to play in this space and where can we be most impactful?
Fr. Justin: Yeah, in the Business Journal, you were quoted when you were first made CEO saying that the vision of healthy people and healthy communities is going to remain intact under your leadership of the Health Forward Foundation, but that the methods and the initiatives will likely evolve over time. So this whole area that you're in, this space of health equity and a health equity lens and grant making and in partnering, this is a rapidly evolving and very ripe space for innovation. I'd love to know, what are some of your early ideas or some of the things that you're imagining that you can do in health, philanthropy, in order to lift up voices that aren't being heard or to foster real innovation in approaches, particularly in our region? This is a cutting edge space. What are you thinking?
Qiana: Well, there's three spaces, if you will, that we see as our core competencies at Health Forward and that's leadership, advocacy, and resources. So we continue to cultivate leaders, and have for the past 10 years, in our Healthy Communities Leadership Academy. That's produced over 100 champions for health equity and those who promote a culture of health in this community. We're thinking about how to position Kansas City's players as leaders in our equity journey together in community. What's our role in cultivating equity champions, beyond the Healthy Communities Leadership Academy? From an advocacy perspective, the lowest hanging fruit that I've shared with you is around Medicaid expansion. We gotta pass it. It's the no brainer, right thing to do, smart thing to do with respect to recovery for both Missouri and Kansas from a health and an economic standpoint. But there are other factors outside of Medicaid expansion that are in the policy realm that need philanthropy’s action and advocacy and so looking at that. We are paying a lot of attention to our wonderful city of Kansas City Council who last year approved a resolution to apply a racial equity lens to its decision making and policymaking. I was so inspired and impressed with that and I even mentioned to Mayor Lucas just yesterday, we want to play a role in that. There's a role for philanthropy to play in that space.
Fr. Justin: You're talking about the resolution that was put forward by Melissa Robinson in the 3rd District?
Qiana: Yeah.
Fr. Justin: We were really honored to get to work on that and Reconciliation Services’s contribution with her was really to put a focus around mental health and race and health equity and so a couple of the places in there. You're right, I mean, that's a very important document. Let me push you a little bit further though, because we talked a little bit in an earlier conversation about program-related investments and there is actually a lot of possibility that that health philanthropists can bring about. The traditional kind of grant making modalities are still going to be needed, apply for a grant, get a grant, report on a grant, apply again. But I wonder what's the role of tech right now? What's the role of social entrepreneurship right now? And how can Health Forward Foundation, which is arguably one of the most influential and best endowed health focused philanthropists, play a role? How are you thinking you might play a role, whether it's PRIs (program related investments) or some other modality? What are you thinking in that tech space or innovation space?
Qiana: Yeah, so traditionally, grantmakers, especially grantmakers in health, have a very kind of orthodox historical method of being responsive to grants that come in and we provide funding for different types of programs and initiatives in the community. But in wanting and needing to go upstream to address inequities that are more structural, you can't grant make your way to resolve those inequities. And so as you point out, we are talking as a team and have begun early conversations with our Board, our finance and investment committee, about the notion of social impact investing in community, not ready to share any commitments in that space, but we're learning about it.
Fr. Justin: We want to hear more! We want you to share, but I know you gotta wait.
Qiana: Yeah, new territory for Health Forward. It's new territory for much of health philanthropy. What we know today, though, is that it will take social impact investments in our community and in partnership with public and private organizations. We can't do it alone. That can pool our dollars to create sizable, longitudinal impact in and for this city. So those are some of the things and concepts that we are beginning to explore as a team and a Board.
Fr. Justin: That's a fantastic answer. As you know, Reconciliation Services, we have Thelma’s Kitchen, which is a social venture donate-what-you-can restaurant. We're working on a number of other social venture ideas and innovations. So definitely, I'm waiting with bated breath to see what the Board approves and would love to support you in that.
Qiana: Really quickly, so that we don't miss the opportunity to help people understand what applying a racial equity lens to policy does. People most people get that there is a health implication to transportation, a health application to food and food procurement and food policy. There's a health implication to affordable housing. When a racial equity lens, which is really kind of like the book ends of inequity in our society, when that's applied to policy, it raises all boats including health and health equity. And so we want to partner with the community and with our city council, led by Melissa Robinson, of course, and Mayor Lucas, to really support that initiative, as well as focus a lot on data, as we are active in this space with letters to our governors in Missouri and Kansas, around the need to collect data around race and ethnicity, not just for COVID. Let's use COVID as a jumping off point to solve some of these data challenges that we have so that we can understand where we are, track where we need to go, and use data to reconstruct narratives.
Fr. Justin: I appreciate you bringing us back to the root again. There isn't enough data out there. There isn't enough work being done. And I think people look at these initiatives, when they hear about a health equity lens or racial equity lens, I think to just be honest about it, a lot of people's minds just kind of turn off. But the reality is, and I like to bring it back to this, and this is where the social entrepreneurship angle does come back in, when you start talking about the fact and you hinted at this, that racial equity and initiatives around diversity, equity, and inclusion, they are a superior growth model economically for the region. And when people begin to get that idea in their head and go, okay, well, not only do I feel good about it morally, maybe I've learned enough about it that I understand why it's needed. But now I'm going to see it hit the pocket book, not only of my company, but of the entire region, and we're all going to be able to do more together. Do you see a direct correlation the same way between the socioeconomic plight of those who are excluded or have minimal access and the racial equity lens? Can you tie those two together directly for us?
Qiana: Yeah, absolutely. When you look at history, it teaches us that laws were used to be weapons against people of color to lock them outside of opportunity. When you look at our GI Bill in terms of education and home ownership, when you look at redlining in communities, when you look you see that resulted in underinvestment and disinvestment in communities that resulted in food deserts and in play deserts. So all of these types of policies shape our daily lives that contribute to the social and economic conditions for all people, but particularly people of color, who these laws were constructed to lock out from opportunity. So we have to be all that more intentional when we think about creating laws and policies, even organizational policies, to lock equity in so that all are included and have a fair and just opportunity to thrive.
Fr. Justin: I could not have said it better and I'm so thankful for you breaking it down and breaking it down so that somebody who's listening right now live or listening to the podcast later who maybe hasn't done so much reading about the racial equity lens and the health equity lens, they can maybe understand a little bit more about what you're saying. Okay, well Qiana, we're going to take a quick break. We're going to go and talk about our sponsor Thelma’s Kitchen. When we come back, I want to dive in and get a little bit personal, so don't go away. We'll be right back with you.
Everybody, I want to tell you that The Social Leader podcast is sponsored by Thelma’s Kitchen, which is Kansas City's first donate-what-you-can restaurant. You can go to ThelmasKitchen.org to find out more. Right now, of course, the restaurant is closed. We're at the corner of 31st and Troost. Normally, we're open for lunch from 11am to 2pm but because of COVID-19, and while we're making preparations to open, we're still closed right now. However, we're giving away food, literally 300-350 meals every single day, Monday through Friday. And I'll tell you, there's a note of urgency right now. So again, thank you for your sponsorship, those of you who have donated a meal online, who have sent in a gift, or sent in plates or any kind of utensils, things that we need to make this happen during these extraordinary times. We're so grateful. You can find out more about the work of Thelma’s Kitchen, as well as Reconciliation Services, on our website.
Okay, I want to jump back in and talk a little bit more with Qiana. Qiana, I want to switch a little bit and get personal if you can. I want to dive in because I know you’ve said you were born at Truman Medical Center, you grew up in Kansas City, and even at the beginning of the podcast, you said that you were an uninsured child and that you were a recipient of the social services safety net here in Kansas City. And then from there, you went on and you've led divisions and now, as the CEO of Health Forward Foundation, leading whole movements in this area around health equity. Is there a memory for you, something personal in your life or in your work life, that really drove home for you the structural and environmental barriers that make up the inequity to health access?
Qiana: Yeah, there are probably too many to mention, Father Justin. I’ll just say that my overall experience of being raised by a single mother, having three brothers, she struggled to put food on the table, relied very heavily on our grandparents to stabilize us, as well as an extended village, oftentimes to support us just for some basic needs until she was able to get on her feet and with the help of the village, pull herself up and go on to lead companies as well. I'm not the first leader in my family, I need to say that, we have a multi generational leadership. And so even despite those circumstances of being born uninsured, receiving services from the safety net, that was such a nurturing community to me, and my brothers, by the way, I should say, loved the village that we had at Swope Health that was very endearing, which I counted a blessing to return there to lead as a mid careerist. But all those factors of watching her struggle, watching her stand in line for welfare checks and cheese and just basic services, really cements in your mind the importance of resilience and the importance of looking at the assets that individuals and communities possess: assets of fortitude, assets of determination, assets of commitment despite adversity. So when I think about those factors that were passed down to me, from an asset perspective, it fuels me and fueled me to be able to rise above those circumstances and to use the privilege that I now carry as being an educated African American leader, who's committed to social justice, committed to equity, committed to uplift from the communities that I serve and from as well as broader communities. So it's really just fueled me in general, for a resolve for equity and for social justice. And I've been very blessed to use my career to be able to do that.
Fr. Justin: Which you've done mightily. Qiana, one of the things that you brought out was this idea of an asset-based community development approach rather than a deficit-based community development approach. And we like to reinvent Reconciliation Services logo, RS, as actually standing for “reveal strength” and kind of realizing that the neighborhoods that we live in, although they may not have the same kind of green currency that some neighborhoods have, they have assets in them that are priceless. It's actually not enough to look at return on investment, what we really have to be looking at also is return on relationship and where does that currency play apart. And as you think about that, from a healthy community standpoint, from a grant making standpoint, how do you encourage that? That's a neighborhood organic thing that takes place. But is there something that you all can do at Health Forward Foundation to nurture that kind of return on relationship in Kansas City and in the region?
Qiana: That's one of the things that impresses me most about my colleagues at Health Forward is that they have their fingers on the pulse of what is happening in communities at the neighborhood level. And I love that about my team. They translate those needs into what's happening at the neighborhood level, with grassroots organizations, and sometimes through grassroots organizations does our insight and our information come, and then they show up at the table to advocate for these communities and for these neighborhoods from a grant making perspective. And so having a very deep and connected relationship with community, oh my goodness, it can't be overstated. And so our team knows our community very, very well. They spend a lot of time with organizations like yourself, Reconciliation Services, and various leaders and workers. And I think understanding the uniqueness of the characteristics of the organization positions them as the best advocates for them, even beyond grant making, but also from a policy perspective, as well as connecting them in with other opportunities and community.
Fr. Justin: When you took over as CEO recently of the Health Forward Foundation, in one interview that I read with you, you said that you want to always lead with purpose and with impact. So I'd love to learn from you and I'd love for you to share with our audience on the podcast right now, what personal leadership practices help you sharpen your purpose and your impact as an innovator in health equity and philanthropy?
Qiana: I think personally it's critical that we know what is our personal why. And we're not always clear on that in every season of our career, but for me my personal why, at least in this season, is to improve the lives of folk living in marginalized conditions. And note that I did not say marginalized people. I hate that phrase. I said marginalize conditions.
Fr. Justin: That's that strength-based approach that you're talking about.
Qiana: Yeah, people are resilient. Communities are resilient. And so that is my personal purpose. And so, when and where possible throughout my career, I've done my best to align my personal purpose and value system with the organization. And if alignment wasn't there, I created it. And, for example, with my great friends at Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas City, I went to Blue Cross as a social worker coming from the nonprofit realm who was a little bit intimidated to go over to the corporate side. I was also energized by the fact that I had done policy in the US Senate. I had done care delivery in the safety net system. I hadn't learned payment and I knew that that was key to health care. But I want it to also introduce healthcare payment to the social side of healthcare that I knew was a significant influencer on health outcomes. So it took me about six and a half, seven years to do that, but I was able to leverage the social capital that I've built within Blue KC to help them also realize the business value. As you pointed out earlier, sometimes it's not just the moral imperative, it's the business imperative. And when you can merge both, it's wonderful. So I was able to champion the inclusion of the social determinants of health and health equity into that corporate strategy. So I just use that as an example. We won't always have the luxury of finding a career opportunity that aligns with our passion and with our purpose, but use your capital, your social capital, your own assets to create that value, and find those win-wins.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I love to talk about moving away from charitable intentions to integrated priorities because to me that's really what you're talking about, sort of getting beyond the charity bucket and saying well in my excess time, in my excess bank account, what's leftover I'll give. But what you seem to be talking about is really finding that missional alignment, really working, doing the self work that it takes to integrate your priorities, particularly in the social sphere in order to do social good from whatever company that you're in. Well, I always end every podcast with a question similar to this and I hope you'll be able to take us home with some really strong words of wisdom and some practical lessons that we can apply. But what do the leaders who are listening need to do in order to step up their social impact and become social leaders?
Qiana: I think a self assessment of your personal value system is always a great starting place. It should be our compass and identify a way to marry that to the social change and the leadership and the championship that this point in time in our country calls for. Then look about and see how you're positioned within your career within your company, how your company is uniquely positioned to make a change and to be a part of change. Whether it be in the health and human services sector, in the policy, sector, government, wherever it is, you have influence. And I encourage folks to use their influence for good and to do that with equity being centered in mind for all folk.
Fr. Justin: Thank you so much Qiana for spending some time with us, for just being such a wonderful Kansas City social leader, for typifying the kind of social leadership that this podcast is trying to highlight, and the amazing work of the Health Forward Foundation. I hope we get to visit with you again sometime very soon.
Qiana: Thank you. I appreciate it, Father Justin. Thanks for the time.
Fr. Justin: Hang tight with me for just a second while we wrap up. I wanted to tell you again that this podcast, The Social Leader, is sponsored by Reconciliation Services and in particular Thelma’s Kitchen. We've got something new and exciting that is coming up and it's called The Social Leader, a brand new experiential leadership development program that we'll be launching in the fall of 2020, as soon as the world opens up again. It will be an awesome opportunity to really go deeper. If you're interested in accelerating your social impact from the company that you're in now or if you're interested in differentiating yourself as a potential candidate for a job, because we all know there's a couple hundred million people that are going to be applying for jobs in the next couple of months, this is an awesome opportunity. So go to our website, down to the bottom of the page, answer a few questions, and one of our team will reach out to you to talk to you more about The Social Leader program, which is coming up very soon. So once again, thank you so much for joining me on The Social Leader episode seven. I hope you had a chance to learn something about health, health equity, and how we're going to move forward as a region with a health equity and a racial equity lens to do more social good together. Until next time.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Brenda Sharpe, President and CEO of the Reach Healthcare Foundation. Brenda talks about the hard realities facing the uninsured and underinsured in our country and the importance of leaders to be informed about the issues and to be authentic and consistent - on and off the clock.
EPISODE 6 - TRANSCRIPT
Father Justin Mathews: Well, good afternoon, all of my friends out there. Welcome to The Social Leader. I'm your host, Father Justin Mathews. You are not going to want to miss today's conversation with Brenda Sharpe, the CEO of Reach Healthcare Foundation. We're going to talk about expanding Medicaid. We're going to talk about equity and healthcare. We're going to talk about her personal leadership tips for being more impactful and having a greater social impact in our leadership, no matter what we do. Stay tuned for this great conversation with Brenda Sharpe coming right up on The Social Leader.
Fr. Justin: Alright, as I said, today my guest is Brenda Sharpe. Brenda is the President and CEO of the Reach Healthcare Foundation. She serves as a board member for the Grantmakers in Health, which is a national organization dedicated to helping foundations and corporate giving programs to improve the health of all people in our country. She is a board member of the Greater Kansas City Chamber of Commerce. She is also the co-chair of the Healthy KC Commission. And lest I leave this off, the Business Journal named her as one of the area's Power 100 in 2015 to 2019 and Ingram's magazine the top 250 most powerful business leaders in Kansas City. That is an incredible resume. And I am very excited to welcome to the show, Brenda Sharpe. Good afternoon, Brenda, how are you?
Brenda: Good afternoon, Father Justin. It's great to be with you today.
Fr. Justin: It's incredible to have you here today as well. It's really an honor. I want to take a moment just to remind everybody that our conversation is being presented by Reconciliation Services and Thelma’s Kitchen is our show sponsor. Well Brenda, I want to dive in with you real quick and just make the most of the time that we have together because right now, all over the news, all over I know even Fox News, CNN, it doesn't matter, people are talking about health care, health care access, and health equity. And that is your bailiwick. That is what you and the Reach Healthcare Foundation focus on every day. Now, when we talk about quality health care, I really have to admit that's an elusive term, and I'd love to know, first of all, what's your definition for what quality health care would look like, for the poor and the underserved in our country, Brenda?
Brenda: Well, thank you, Father Justin, and thank you for all the work that you do to help people who are underserved and uninsured. The work you do is so consistent with our mission here at Reach. One of the things that I have always thought about when I think about the uninsured and quality and access and what that means is to think about how those of us who are fortunate enough to carry around a laminated card in our wallet, and what we expect to get and receive as a result of having that laminated card. What we want at Reach is for everyone to have that same sense of security, that same, right to access certain services, procedures, processes. The access to care and quality care for us is: do individuals who are uninsured, low income, underserved, under-insured, have that same expectation of access to preventative services, a mammogram, colonoscopy? Do they have those same rights and privileges? I would say currently in Kansas and Missouri as a result of long-standing underfunding of our state's Medicaid program, and eligibility rates, and a lack of access to Medicaid, we have a whole lot of people who have never enjoyed that peace of mind.
Fr. Justin: So if you were to just quickly give sort of a picture of what quality healthcare looks like, you're saying that there's more ubiquitous access for the poor. What would it look like for the individual? What are they missing out on that you want to see increased or have access to?
Brenda: Well, first of all, that peace of mind and not having to worry about choices between a prescription medication or paying the rent. I think that's a quandary that so many people find themselves in. Secondly, access to a primary care provider, whether that be a nurse practitioner, whether that be a physician, a physician assistant. Someone that when they do become ill or unwell, they have an opportunity to access that person in a relatively easy way in their neighborhood with someone who is culturally sensitive, appropriate, looks like them, understands their background. So that's kind of the healthcare access side. From an overarching standpoint and more along the social determinants of health, what it means is that people need to have access to places to exercise and a safe place to walk. Everybody right now is talking about during the COVID crisis, go outside, go and walk. There are many neighborhoods in our community where that is simply not an option for folks, it's not safe. And we really need to find ways to help folks enjoy all aspects of their health, access to nutritious foods, for instance, for people who are living in food deserts, access to high quality education.
Fr. Justin: You bring up a lot of interesting points there. Health care, when we think about it, is that needle on that vaccine or we think about access to well visits, but really what you're saying is that health care has so much more to do with other social determinants of health. So you're talking about exercise. I would throw in there probably breaking down social isolation and beginning to have access to healthy education about healthy food and healthy life practices. And so I really appreciate that you include those holistic aspects of healthcare when you're talking about what quality health care looks like. Reach Healthcare Foundation is really trying to advance health care coverage and access to this kind of quality care. What is the Reach Healthcare Foundation doing specifically in order to advance health care coverage and access?
Brenda: Well, we take a multi-factored approach. So we do a lot of grant making and I think that's what people expect from a foundation. That's one tool in our toolbox. And we grant to organizations like yours, that are providing direct and specific care to people who are low income, uninsured, disenfranchised from the system, marginalized populations and communities, for instance. And so that's a big part of that. We know we don't know everything, and you all do this every day. You know your clients. You know your population very well. So supporting those organizations that are highly aligned with our mission to reduce our uninsured rate and improve access to care is a large strategy. We fund about four and a half to five million dollars annually to those organizations in a six county region across the Kansas City metropolitan area. We also have other tools in our toolbox, one of those being advocacy support. And so again, we do provide support to organizations that are working statewide in both Kansas and Missouri to inform our policymakers and the administration in each state about the impact for instance of certain tax policies, the impact of eligibility rates, and ease of access to applying for and receiving public benefit programs such as Medicaid or TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) or WIC (Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children). So that's a big piece of that work. And then we also advocate on our own. One of the conclusions we came to many years ago is that we can't just expect nonprofits who tend to be highly under-resourced to be out there carrying this water if we aren't willing to carry that as well. So my Board of Directors is amazing. They're a very diverse group of people across the region with lots of different types of expertise and they have been extremely supportive of us speaking out loud and clearly about the lack of certain things in our state, most specifically Medicaid expansion, which is something that our foundation, many others, and many other organizations have been advocating for in Kansas and Missouri, which remain amongst the last 13 to 14 states that have yet to expand their programs.
Fr. Justin: Before we dive into Medicaid expansion, which we're going to get to, and I really want to get your thoughts on that. One of the things that strikes me is that since you're a grant making foundation, and you're working with organizations like Reconciliation Services to advance access to care and improve the quality of care, for example, for us, it's healthy communities, it's access to healthy food, Thelma’s Kitchen, etc. You guys really have your ear to the rail and I love that you're able to translate what you hear from us and from the hundreds of other folks that you all fund and work with closely. You're able to translate that into policy development, which I think lacks a lot of time in the policy and advocacy that's done at the civic and public spheres. You don't always hear those who are difficult to hear. There are a lot of people missing from really critical conversations in our country. One of the things that I think has been a challenge, and I'd like to know if you agree, is just getting poor folks and folks who struggle to survive and succeed, enrolled in the existing marketplace. Politically, this has been a massive debacle for a couple of presidential terms and we don't have to get into the politics of it directly, but with that difficulty, with that barrier of getting enrolled, why is there that barrier? Why is it so hard for the poor to get access to the marketplace? And how has that lack of access impacted those poor and vulnerable neighbors during this pandemic?
Brenda: Well, I think what you're describing is, what we call at Reach, the coverage gap. And so most people who've never had to utilize a Medicaid program, for instance, or public assistance, assume that if you're poor, you lose your job, that that assistance is available and you just need to apply for it and you'll get it. What they don't understand, and going back well before the Affordable Care Act was passed, Father Justin, the eligibility rates for benefit programs, like Medicaid, for instance, in both Kansas and Missouri were already extraordinarily low. So for instance, in Kansas, you would have to be below 33% of the poverty level. In Missouri, it's even lower.
Fr. Justin: Can you define for our listeners just what you mean by the poverty level real quick?
Brenda: So The Federal Poverty Level is a benchmark that has been established by the federal government that says if you're at this particular level, you are poor. That benchmark hasn't been adjusted for decades and that's problem number one. Problem number two is some states, prior to the Affordable Care Act, said, “okay, if that's the federal government's definition of poor, that will be our state's definition of poor.” That did not happen in Kansas and Missouri. Missouri said 18%, for instance, of the federal poverty level is poor. In Kansas, about 30 to 33% of that amount. So if you make more than let's say, $9,000, a year in the state of Kansas, you are too rich for the state's Medicaid program.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, that just seems like a crime. I have to say that. You can't live on $9,000 and to say that that's a level or a standard of wealth is beyond me, so forgive me for the editorializing.
Brenda: I couldn’t agree more. No one can live on that amount. And the choices that you have to make then are do I apply for Medicaid and I’m not able then to work because it's going to make too much that you're going to disqualify yourself for that health insurance that you desperately need. So the Affordable Care Act came along and attempted to close that coverage gap. And for a year or so we thought everything was going to be great and we were going to close that coverage gap. But then lawsuits were filed and the Supreme Court ruled that states can decide whether or not to expand that gap up to 133% of the poverty level. So back to my example, in Kansas, not only if you make more than $9,000 in the state of Kansas, you're too rich for Medicaid, you are too poor. You don't make enough to qualify for subsidies on healthcare.gov, so you're in this horrible gap. One of the things we fund are navigators and assisters who help people make those applications. And I can't tell you how heartbreaking it is for those workers to have to tell someone you're too poor for this program and too rich for this program and therefore you are cut out of access to health insurance coverage. And that is what has gone on for the last seven years in the state of Kansas and Missouri because they have opted not to close that coverage gap so that we could have more people covered. And in Kansas that's about 150,000 people. In Missouri it's about 230,000 people. So now let's think about what's happened with COVID. The number of people who are now unemployed is absolutely staggering. And what we know about our American health care system is your health insurance follows your employment essentially. So if you had employer based health coverage and have lost your job, you might be able to use the COBRA program, but I'm talking to folks whose COBRA premium is $1,200 dollars a month for them.
Fr. Justin: That's very expensive. I've had people in my life try to get on that and they couldn't afford it. You’ve just lost your job.
Brenda: You've lost your job, you've lost your insurance, you found out you're too rich for our state's Medicaid program, and too poor for healthcare.gov. So it's a real quandary. And our legislative leaders have absolutely got to to address this this session as soon as they get back. We're going to be in a world of hurt. We already are. But we're going to be in an even more strange system here in a few months.
Fr. Justin: I want to pause for a second and let everybody know that if you have questions for Brenda Sharpe, who is the CEO of the Reach Healthcare Foundation or if you've had an experience with this exact kind of gap that they are trying to close, feel free to comment on one of the social media platforms (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube) and we'd like to continue the conversation. I love when folks are interactive on the program. Well, Brenda, we're going to come right back, I want to take a minute to talk about our sponsor Thelma’s Kitchen. But when we get back, I want to pivot a little bit and talk about what the world would have looked like if we had done what you're suggesting. So hang tight with me for just one second.
Reconciliation Services is the presenting sponsor for this program, The Social Leader, but Thelma’s Kitchen is a donate-what-you-can cafe located right here in Kansas City. Thelma’s Kitchen was the first donate-what-you-can cafe. Of course, the restaurant is closed now. We're on the corner of 31st and Troost, but right now we're literally giving away food to over 325-350 people every single day during this COVID crisis. And I'll tell you, the type of people that are coming is really changing. It's not just folks who are homeless, or folks who are on fixed incomes. I met a guy the other day, who was a painter who was out of work. I met somebody who was a maintenance tech at a large law firm. She's out of work. So right now there's a note of urgency. And so that's why Thelma’s Kitchen, which is the sponsor of this show, really needs your help. You can go to ThelmasKitchen.org and you can find out more about the work of Thelma’s Kitchen and the work of Reconciliation Services, and you can sponsor a meal for those who are in the community.
Well, I'd like to jump back now and talk with my guest, Brenda Sharpe, who is the CEO of the Reach Healthcare Foundation. And Brenda, you are just getting ready to talk a little bit more about Medicaid expansion. And I'll be honest, for somebody who doesn't understand the details of the law, the way that I know you do, and the insurance system, the way that you and your colleagues do at the Reach Healthcare Foundation, I'd like to know from you kind of in layman's terms, which I'm saying layman even though I'm clergy but we'll let that stand, what would the world look like for the poor, for those who are in that gap? What would the world look like right now during COVID had we gone ahead and expanded Medicaid for those in Kansas and Missouri?
Brenda: Well, let me share with you, to be on Medicaid in either Kansas or Missouri, it's essentially a “poor and...” You have to be poor and pregnant, poor and disabled, poor and elderly. So what it would look like if we had expanded Medicaid is we would be able to pick up those hard working folks that you just referenced the painter, the maintenance worker, who are working generally one or more jobs, sometimes two, sometimes three jobs but none of those employers may offer healthcare coverage or affordable health care coverage to that employee. So they are going without and that is the group that is really falling into the coverage gap. It's the working poor. You'll hear a lot of rhetoric from folks who say, “well, those folks are able-bodied, they can get a job and they can get insurance, they can afford insurance.” And again, I think people assume that there is this very benevolent level of public assistance out there. And that's just not the case in Kansas and Missouri. So we started so low with our eligibility rates, whereas other states started at about 100% of the federal poverty level. And when the Affordable Care Act offered the opportunity for all those states to expand, they closed their coverage gap very quickly, because it wasn't as big of a gap. We have a huge gap. So we were starting at a real deficit before COVID. We now, I suspect, what's going to happen is that much like after 2008, when the recession hit and many people became unemployed, they assumed that there was some place for them to go, they assumed that there was a community based health clinic or center. And there are. We have wonderful centers in our community, but they are already at capacity, they are already under-resourced. And those hard working people who through absolutely no fault of their own have found themselves now without employment, and aren’t able to get employment, even when this comes back I think we'll still be seeing unemployment rates very, very high for quite some time, those folks would have at least been able to have their health insurance covered. Because if you're uninsured, you're forced to make terrible choices. If you are sick or a little sick or not sure if you're sick, you are not going to go see a doctor or go to a physician or an emergency room because you know there's going to be a large bill behind that coming to you and you won't be able to pay it. Medical debt is the number one cause of bankruptcy across the country and in our two states especially. So you're going to make that choice. So what's going to happen is you're likely to wait until you're much, much more ill and those treatment costs then to treat you are going to go up and that's the quandary. We could have helped ameliorate this to some extent for years in both Kansas and Missouri and it's about to get worse, I'm afraid.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I wonder how the tens of millions of people who are now unemployed, including gig workers and side hustlers, and folks who didn't have ever access to that kind of big company style group health insurance, I wonder what's going to become of them and especially their kids. We know people right here at Reconciliation Services who come in and they need to go to the hospital. I remember one time one of my dear friends was having a panic attack, but she didn't know if it was a panic attack or a heart attack because sometimes they can feel very similar and she absolutely needed medical attention. She would not allow us to call the EMT’s, would not allow us to call the ambulance. Because once you do that if they determine that you need to go to the hospital, it's very difficult to kind of refuse that. And she could not afford the bill that would inevitably come from the hospital visit and the ambulance ride. And so to watch somebody who desperately needs care, not get the care because in the middle of their crisis, they're actually thinking about the bill from the ambulance. That's not how health care ought to work. And I'll be honest, it's not only impacting healthcare, I think you would agree with this. But that kind of lack of access is not just about that moment when you're sick. But isn't it about the kind of rippling secondary trauma that happens or the rippling health effects within the family system? How does that moment impact that whole family system, Brenda?
Brenda: Well, we know the kind of anxiety that comes with a diagnosis of any chronic condition. So if you are diagnosed with a chronic condition, let's say, asthma, diabetes, and you're also uninsured, that's a multiplier effect. And that's going to spill over into every aspect of your family work. Everyone in the family is going to be in a heightened state of anxiety, leading to higher levels of stress and depression. Sometimes family violence as a result of that additional stress and anxiety. So it has a ripple effect. I do want to go back to one thing that you mentioned, you mentioned children, Father Justin. One fortunate thing about the United States and our Children's Health Insurance Program at the federal level is that it is much more generous than coverage for adults. So I encourage anyone who finds themselves newly unemployed and without insurance or family insurance that covers their children, at least get your children enrolled. You can do that online in both Kansas and Missouri. But that's called the Children's Health Insurance Program and the eligibility rates percentages are much, much higher. So it's much easier to apply for. You will have to have some documentation, you may have to have some other paperwork and assistance, but there are people that can assist with that, but get your kids covered for sure.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, and I think education is a big part of it, so I just want to encourage everybody to go to ReachHealth.org to find out more about the work that Brenda Sharpe and Reach Healthcare Foundation are doing and get educated about the kind of things that she's been sharing with us today so that you can have a greater social impact as a leader no matter what your job is or what you're leading. Well, with that, I want to pivot a little bit now to talk about your leadership because the work that you're doing is really hard, and it can be easy to be overwhelmed by a problem as immense as the American healthcare system and it can be overwhelming to hear the stories day after day of those who are struggling to survive and succeed and who go uncovered or don't have quality health care. As a leader yourself, you're somebody who's known, and I know you personally, to be somebody who wants to have a significant social impact in your leadership and in your work. And I think you would do that whether you were at a tech company or at a foundation. I think that's the kind of leader that you are. What are your personal strategies for how you keep focused on that true north? And what do you do to ensure that as a leader you're having not only a corporate impact, but a social impact as a leader?
Brenda: Well, I thank you for those very kind words, and I would say I don't know any different. It's in my DNA, I think. I grew up very poor. I grew up in a family that had multiple challenges. And I grew up without a lot of things that I now am incredibly privileged to have and I don't forget that. And I think a lot of people that find themselves in the nonprofit or social services sector have some part of their background that they are trying to reconcile with and it’s appropriate to your name. And so for me, I always knew I wanted to be in a role to help others. I initially thought I wanted to be in counseling and I wanted to do that direct service with folks but frankly, I didn't have the boundaries for that. It was too much for me to take in on top of my own baggage that I was bringing to that. And so I encourage people who are looking for leadership opportunities and thinking about how they bring something special to the table that they also do a little bit of a gut check on their readiness and their boundaries. What I found great pleasure in was being a volunteer coordinator. And then doing public speaking and grant writing and fundraising and being more on the administrative side. Those are ways that I could contribute to causes that I feel strongly about: child abuse prevention, violence against women, healthcare access for all. Those are things that I could bring to the table that were a little different than my good friend who's a forensic interviewer who listens to just absolutely horrendous stories every day and can still get up in the morning. That was not me, but I owned that, I learned that about myself. So I encourage people to think about that. And I also think, you know, the current crisis is showing me over and over again what I already knew about the nonprofit sector. We are resilient. We are creative. We are used to doing a lot with nothing, and we're about ready to have to do a lot more, with a lot more nothing. But I know that we will get through this because people who find themselves in these positions are there for a reason. And, like you, I'm amazed every day the stories that are coming before me that are demonstrating that resiliency.
Fr. Justin: If you're talking to somebody, and I think a lot of the audience that listens to this show, The Social Leader, falls into this category, they're actually not working in nonprofits, they're not folks who are directly on the front line working with the poor or working in some sort of social setting. There's a lot of volunteering going on, a lot of Board service going on, but for somebody in their context, at their company, in their division, how can they advance the social good from within their own job? What kind of attitude or mindset or actions does somebody need to take to accelerate their social leadership?
Brenda: I think that's a great question and I guess for me, it would come down to the words authenticity and consistency. So if you find yourself at a cocktail party in the upper echelons of society, I don't find myself there often, but if you do: Are you speaking about your beliefs, your values in a way that's consistent if you were if you were working with in a volunteer capacity with someone who just came in off the street into Thelma’s Kitchen? You have wonderful corporate volunteers and I think sometimes people segregate their lives a little bit depending on their social circle or others. And so, being consistent, not being annoying or aggressive certainly, but being consistent in your values and beliefs. If you work outside the nonprofit sector, you have an even greater opportunity because you're able to educate folks who are not getting exposure to the way a lot of people in our community live. So bringing them along, walking alongside, helping them find ways to contribute, but being consistent. And then the last piece I would say is really getting informed about policy advocacy. I worked so long in the nonprofit sector without understanding that I was working so hard all year round to get something passed or changed that could be undone just like that with a stroke of a pen in the legislature in Kansas or Missouri or even at a local level, city or county government. We really have to start thinking about understanding what elected officials role and responsibility is to us as constituents and and to us as a community in our quality of life and in understanding that connection and learning how to write a letter to your legislator and learning how to pick up the phone and overcoming that fear and understanding that they work for us. And we need to remind them of that sometimes. Many of them understand that and they're wonderful but others are there for other reasons and we need to hold them to account.
Fr. Justin: Well, I really appreciate the insights that you've shared and appreciate the depth of the conversation. I just want to encourage people again, to get educated, to stay consistent. As you said, just because you're in the corporate setting, you're a hiring manager, you're a foreman on a construction job, everyone has the opportunity to be a social leader within their own sphere. And that's not just about charity and volunteering. That's about showing up. That's about like you said, Brenda, being consistent, being educated, and using your voice, using your privilege, and using your power to help other people. And so thank you for being such a wonderful example of a social leader and thank you for coming on The Social Leader, episode number six with us today. I hope that I can have you back sometime soon.
Brenda: Likewise, Father Justin. This is my first go with this type of a format and I really appreciate how kind you've been to me and all of the good work that you're doing in the community. Thank you.
Fr. Justin: Thank you so much Brenda. For all of my friends out there in the community,I want to remind you that this show is presented by Reconciliation Services and sponsored by Thelma’s Kitchen, Kansas City's first donate-what-you-can restaurant where right now we are literally feeding hundreds and hundreds of people every single day. If you'd like to get involved with Thelma’s Kitchen, you can go to ThelmasKitchen.org and you can sponsor a meal for folks right now. We also have a list online of the kind of practical things that you can buy and send or things that we need to continue doing our work. And not only that, but you can go to rs3101.org and see Reconciliation Services and the broader work that we're doing which includes Thelma’s kitchen, all the social and trauma therapy services that we talked about today with Brenda, as well as The Social Leader. Friends, before we leave, I want to tell you one last thing. We are getting ready this fall to launch a brand new program called The Social Leader. It's a leadership development program for anybody who wants to accelerate their social impact, no matter where they are in leadership. The program is launching this fall. Sign up on the email list and make sure to be the first to find out about when that program launches, of course, when we can all get back together in person again. So thank you again. The show has been presented by Reconciliation Services. I'm your host, Father Justin Mathews, and I look forward to seeing you next week on The Social Leader. Have a wonderful, wonderful day.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin talks with Kansas City, Missouri, Mayor Quinton Lucas, about leading in unity in times of crisis and always looking for the common ground.
EPISODE 5 - TRANSCRIPT
Fr. Justin Mathews: Well, good morning, my friends. Welcome to episode number five of The Social Leader. I’m super honored to have Mayor Quinton Lucas with us as our special guest today. You are not gonna want to miss this conversation about social leadership and life in Kansas City when people are hunkering down under COVID. We'll talk a little bit about coming out of that situation and get a deeper understanding of Mayor Quinton and his leadership. Don't go away.
Fr. Justin: Well welcome, Mayor Quinton.
Mayor Quinton Lucas: Hey, how are you? I'm happy to be with everybody.
Fr. Justin: Good morning. My special guest today is Mayor Quinton Lucas. He is the former third district councilman, our district right here in Kansas City on Troost Avenue. He's a law school professor, a community leader, 55th Mayor of Kansas City. Mayor Lucas, we're super honored to have you on the program today. Thanks so much for being here.
Mayor Lucas: It is great to be with you all. Thank you all for watching and listening today and certainly supporting Reconciliation Services.
Fr. Justin: Absolutely. Thank you for being a long time supporter of Reconciliation Services and our work on Troost. Well, I want to jump in today because I know that our time is really precious and that you've got a lot going on obviously right now. I want to talk a little bit about when everything feels out of order. Because we are under a stay at home order in Kansas City and across the country. You've got so many stories, I'm sure. I'd love to know, from your perspective, what do you see that's bringing us together right now, Mayor Lucas?
Mayor Lucas: I think that there is this amazing thing across all ages where people recognize and they actually care about their neighbor or somebody that they don't even know. I've been impressed by how many 20-somethings, teenagers have talked to me about how I'm doing this because I think it's important to keep somebody else in my family, somebody else in my community safe. So I know a lot of the news attention is about negativity, we're talking about a virus, we’re talking about death. But I think as all of us know, in many ways, when you go through these journeys, you see what is the greatest in a lot of people in our community and in ways that we didn't know before, so I've been really impressed by that and proud of it.
Fr. Justin: I know that you're all over the city and that everyone's asking you for your leadership and asking you to kind of keep that steady hand. Is there a story in the last couple of weeks that really stands out to you about how Kansas City and our region has really come together in this time of crisis, something special about our region and our city that you've seen?
Mayor Lucas: I think I'm going to go all the way back to when we announced our stay at home orders. I was pretty aggressive and out front early on Kansas City, doing a lot of these emergency orders. We canceled large events, all types of stuff. But we recognized that we needed to speak with one voice and that was that core fuor press conference: myself; the leaders of Johnson County, Kansas County; Wyandotte County, Kansas; and Jackson County, Missouri. 1.5 million people represented by that group. And if you didn't know the demographics, Ed Eilert is an older white dude, David Alvey a little younger, Frank White about double my age man of color, and you know, it was interesting because all of us came from our different traditions, our very different politics, and said this is a big deal, and I think let the community know it was a big deal. At a time, perhaps, when the national and state conversations were a little more fluid, I think it made a real positive and it showed the community it was time for us to get together. So I was proud of that step.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I remember I actually left for spring break, drove to Colorado, like a lot of folks in the region do. I had an emergency board meeting on the way to Colorado. I saw the mountains in the far distance and I turned right around with my family. We came back within 24 hours. And it was a whirlwind. And I remember just thinking to myself, we're going to have to close Thelma’s Kitchen, we're going to have to close all of our partner/guests corporate sponsor work that we do at Reconciliation Services. This is going to have a massive impact on the community in terms of hunger, in terms of stability, in terms of just the kind of life that we're going to be living, no matter how long it lasts. And I remember being really impressed that you and all those folks that you named, you stood up, and you took the bull by the horns and you said, this is what we're going to do. And you did it with a positive spirit. And I really appreciated that leadership that you offered, and I think it did bring comfort to the community. It makes me think, though, as a relatively young mayor, and at the outset, really at the very tippy top of your very first term as mayor in Kansas City, you immediately faced this massive pandemic crisis that has economic impact, civic impact, impact on all the things that you care about. How do you decide in your leadership who to listen to? What voices are important, and sort of on a personal level, what helps you keep that true north when you are leading right now?
Mayor Lucas: SoI'll start with a true north point. Whether I've been in office, whether I was practicing law, whether I was a student, you do have to always remember why you were there. And I ran for office largely because I wanted to make sure that we were looking out for the most vulnerable in our society, in our population, and in our city. And you know, it has been challenging throughout this process. On the day we did the stay at home order, the number of calls I got from people that said, “What in the heck are you doing? Everybody is confused. This is the worst thing ever. Lucas, I thought you had a future and you'll be a one termer.” And then as we've continued, particularly now, even to this point, when people are saying, “we need to open up society immediately, you're strangling every business” and all of that you have to remember who you're looking out for and you have to think back to that vulnerable person. You have to think back to the fact that there are, and you work with them too, Father Justin, thousands of Kansas Citians without good access to healthcare, who have pre existing conditions, who don't have a regular relationship with a physician. And what I can't just say is, you know, let the strong survive. That's the opposite of my faith tradition. That's the opposite. Even if you don't have a faith tradition, that's the opposite of, I think, what core humanity is. I think that we continue to be in a position where we can help save lives, help improve lives, and I think that is outweighing some of the costs. Now, I know that there are substantial economic costs, and indeed, we work in the business of trying to address those as well. But I know that those are the sorts of things that we can address tomorrow, next week, next year. What I can't address is somebody who's lost a loved one. What I can't do is cure some of those things where we've already had dramatic tragedies. And so that's really been my guidance. In terms of the data we use. I listen to experts, I listen to physicians, I listen to health care people. I think that's what we are supposed to do. I get politics, I know, I won an election or two. But at the same time, I think it's more important that we're listening to them and we figure out the politics thereafter.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you make some really good points. If I could push you a little bit, a lot of us who have been in leadership, particularly people who are senior leaders or divisional leaders in Kansas City, or even community leaders, particularly in the third district where people are really struggling to survive and succeed. Leaders always face crisis, and they say it's lonely in leadership. Are there some practices that you keep on a daily basis as a leader that helps you keep your focus personally? Are there one or two things that you could recommend to people who are listening in the community who are trying to lead right now? How do you keep going? What keeps you strong?
Mayor Lucas: One of the parts of our order that I think was important, and I've kind of made sure I fought for this, was the ability for people to go outside, go to the parks, to get fresh air. That has always been important to me. If you follow me on social media, you see I post a lot of pictures of sunsets. Maybe it's because I'm hokey, maybe it's because I'm from the middle of the country and I don't have a mountain or an ocean to stare at, but it gives me this moment to think about the world as being bigger than me. Right? You see the sun, you see the cloud, you see the storms come in, and you realize you're but one small part of this gigantic ecosystem of things and time. And I think finding those moments of peace are essential to me almost every day and I always try to do that. There was a gentleman online, as social media folks are wont to do, who engaged with me and said, “how dare you actually be posting pictures of sunsets when people are struggling?” I responded to him and noted that sunsets are something that all of us share. You can be having the cruddiest day, the happiest one, the richest person, the poorest. It's something that's uniting us all and something greater than us. And so that's usually been a good thing for me. In terms of relationships, I like to talk to my mom sometimes and get her view on the world. She's not an insider and so it's usually just a pretty direct companion, which is something that I enjoy. And then finally, we all have special people in our lives, and making sure you're taking time to care about what it is they're talking about. I think where leaders go wrong, is when we start to shun our families. I see some who start to shun their children and say, “I don't have time over the next six months because it's the biggest deal ever.” You can't do that. You have to realize that part of you being at your best is making sure that those who care the most about you are part of your world too. And so I try to make sure I remember that.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you bring up some good points. I think the idea of just really keeping centered and remembering like, what is good, what is beautiful, what is true. And keeping those things in front of us, as leaders helps us to keep that perspective. And then also, just talking about family and talking about priorities. When we were going into this COVID crisis, and really, as you were beginning your term as mayor, there were a lot of priorities that were on the table. Everything from workforce development, to housing, to free transit, all the work with small business, everything that you had sort of on the docket and queued up and ready to go. As we come out, no matter how much time it's gonna take, whether it's the 3rd or the 15th or later, when we come out of this COVID pandemic and the lockdown, what do you think are the opportunities? We went into this whole situation with a lot of priorities, particularly around diversity, equity, inclusion business, those big weighty priorities and people tended to say, we can't do that, we can't do free transit, we can't do better with housing. Do you see an opportunity right now to kind of shift the priorities in Kansas City coming out of this? And if so, which ones and how?
Mayor Lucas: Yes, I think we do have that opportunity and the way we do it is this: that everyone recognizes how connected we are. Everyone also recognizes that our federal government, our state, and our local governments, are bailing out businesses with the highest paid CEOs and individuals who are at the opposite side of the income scale. And so I think it creates more of a conversation around what's important for our communities. I appreciate that conversation and I think it will encourage us to say, all right, for example, you know, a lot of our social services organizations took it on the chin over the last month and a half, were not able to have big fundraisers, have not been able to do any number of things, but I think certainly in Kansas City as we were dealing with this crisis, we said, “Well, gosh, what about the homeless population? What about support for them? What about summer activities as a society reopens, and parents go back to work, but perhaps you don't have summer school classes that are meeting? What does that all look like?” And so, I think the fact that so many of us will need to address that is an important moment for us to sit back and say, “okay, what's worked, what hasn't?” I think another thing that is vital for us is to evaluate how we do things. A lot of us have had our workplaces changed. Even those of us who were office based workers are often sitting at home. It gives you in some ways, more time, less commuting time, that sort of thing. My thought might be, how do we turn that into something positive? How do we recognize that, with perhaps less travel time, less in person at the office time, we can find more time for our nonprofits, we can find more time for our community. That's the sort of work that I think is before us now. And I think we should try to push that and see how that impacts us in different areas.
Fr. Justin: One of the things that you mentioned was just the struggle of businesses, the struggle of nonprofits and I know at Reconciliation Services, there's sort of this double sided coin. On the one hand, we're seeing over 5,000 people this year. We literally are serving over 350 meals every single day, Monday through Friday. That's more than double what we were serving in terms of hungry people. And the other thing I'll share with you is that we kind of have our ear to the rail, maybe in advance of the statistics, because we see who's coming. And it's not just the homeless, there are actually a lot of voices that are going unheard. Just yesterday I spoke with a woman who had been a maintenance tech at a big law firm here in town, she got let go. I spoke with another person who is a painter, solopreneurs, and then of course we have the homeless and those who aren't sheltered and can't shelter in place. As you think about all of those voices in Kansas City, do you think that there are some voices that haven't been heard yet? Or that aren't being heard loud enough in the media? And which ones do you think need to be heard more clearly?
Mayor Lucas: I think you do make an outstanding point, which is that we forget the middle a lot in America, because I think since the 1980s, we've all seen this giant middle class, which our country does have. We tend to not think about people that are still struggling each day to stay where they are, to take care of their families, and that it's a much bigger group than one might imagine. And so, you know, I think that we need to hear from any folks that, in essence. I'll just say we need to hear from the storytellers. We need the people that actually are sharing the messages of our community. One thing that I think is lost in this political moment is that a lot of days there's this “are you with the president or are you on another side? Do you see things this way? Is this whole thing a hoax over done? Is this the world's greatest calamity of all time?” And I'm not going on Mayor Pete on you and saying just be in the middle, but what I am going to say is, it's important for us to listen. It's important for me to listen. I gave out my cell phone number to everybody in Kansas City a while back and I've been asked a few times whether I regret it, and the answer is no. Yeah, some people will be obnoxious and all of that, but you know, you just put your phone on silent and keep living. But what's interesting for me is how many people, even if they want me to open up everything tomorrow, really just want me to hear their story, to hear about their challenge, to hear how tough it is to take care of their two or three children right now. And for me, that allows me to say yeah, I may not do the remedy that you want, but that doesn't mean that doesn't allow me to look more broadly at what are other remedies that are good for you. We have this small business relief fund that was in the paper for not paying out money enough, which is the nature of government. But the reason that fund was created, and that's one of my proudest steps along the way, as soon as I started issuing orders about shutting down our economy, I recognize there'd be people not that needed, you know, $300,000, but they needed $10,000. They needed $5,000. That said, “well, yeah, maybe I can handle being shuttered, but I still have to pay my insurance on the building this month” or “I still have to pay my utilities.” It's that barber somewhere. It's someone like that. And those are the sorts of people I want us to hear more from, because I think that's where so many of our answers in society can happen.
Fr. Justin: What encouragement would you give to the side hustlers? There's a lot of people who don't officially yet have businesses. In particular, in the community that we serve, low and moderate income families, there are a lot of people who have that side hustle that's actually the difference between making rent, getting food, getting medicine, even with the support that they might get from a social service agency like ours. What do we do about those folks who were mowing lawns? And who had those side hustles going? What would you say to them? And what resources are going to be available for them as they move forward so their families can survive and succeed?
Mayor Lucas: I'll get a little egg head on this and then I'll come back to a normal answer. A few years ago I had the fortune of studying abroad in South Africa, an experience that in many ways changed my life. Because it was the first time, and I always knew about people who hustled, but over there like 40% of the economy are people that are in what they call the informal sector, or in essence are side hustling, not on your normal tax rolls, not with business licenses, anything like that, but are surviving each day, some well, some not so well. It was interesting because the public policy maker there always has to work on ways to address that population. I think in America we've always had it, but we've never addressed so many of those people, that there are folks that are getting by.
And so I would say there are a few things that I think we need to do. One of which is to make sure that we don't create such a huge bureaucracy so that the only people that can ever sign up for any services or assistance are either big companies, people represented by lawyers, or people that have that level of business sophistication that veers more towards the elite than it does everyone else. I think we also need to make sure that to the extent we're providing services, we're looking at individuals. We're not just basing things on you've been a Kansas City business for three years and you've paid all these taxes and that sort of thing. We need to say, “how can we help people and meet more people where they are?” I think another thing is that we need to really engage old fashioned community organizers and community institutions in helping us channel where we can find ways to assist. City Hall, God love us, is not necessarily the best at handing out social welfare grants, nor should we be necessarily. I think working with organizations that are doing that important work is the best way we can make sure that we are not actually missing huge groups of people. Because all of us have our biases. When I come up with a grant or something and if it was Quinton Lucas handing it out, I would go to places that I know, people that I know, I'd ask my family folks and all of that,” hey, where should I go?” And that's great for people who are in my world and it's part of what diversity is about. But you want to get to community organizations because they see so many more. Right, Father Justin? I’ve been at Thelma’s Kitchen and talked to people who do not live right at 31st and Troost, that came from far away, somewhat surprising, who heard about. And so those are the sorts of things, the organizations with which we need to work to make sure we’re actually addressing these issues long term.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up Thelma’s Kitchen because when we went into this crisis, we already had one in eight people in this city, particularly in Jackson County, who were suffering from food insecurity with massive wait lines for housing. And I know housing is something that you've really tried to champion. And as this crisis is going on, it's made national news, but I'll be honest with you, I've seen it locally, particularly in Kansas City, that there's a pretty significant disparity, particularly around racial lines in Kansas City. What do you feel like we need to do in Kansas City specifically? What lessons have we learned and what should we change to address those systemic issues of inequity of racial inequity and economic inequity? What do you think we do coming out of COVID-19 to try to address those things?
Mayor Lucas: I think we have a few options. One: we have to make sure that we don't move on too quickly. American society has this way of saying, “thank God that's over, let's part!” And I get that. I'm human too. I want to, as soon as they tell me I can safely, I want to go to a baseball game, take a vacation, and all that. But we need to make sure that we don't forget, in some ways, what got us here. And we're missing the point if we say it's a virus. You've studied theology much more than I have and the story of the plagues isn't necessarily just about what an interesting plague, right? It's about human reactions to it, human responses and what lessons we take from that. And for us, I think we need to make sure that we see okay, how was our health system inadequately prepared to address this issue? How did the virus, as it struck our community and continues to strike our community, hit people on a disproportionate basis? Frankly, how does the economic crisis that we're facing hit people on a disproportionate basis as it aligns with socioeconomic status and race? And then we need to think about, okay, how do we attack that? How can we make sure that if a lot of people are dealing with housing insecurity, for example, that we can give them enough actual stability such that they don't fear that one month of living behind on rent will mean that their family’s homeless? How will we make sure that there will still be access to food in the event that school lunches are harder to get? Those are the sorts of things that we need to work on and frankly, that we need to incorporate into our costs of government. One of the more controversial things I did, but I'm so proud that I picked this fight. So we proposed the city budget in Kansas City before COVID-19 broke. And then we got COVID-19 and everybody said, “oh, all the money is going to be gone. We need to change and just vote last year's budget.” I fought against that, for one very simple reason, because we've worked so hard to get peanuts in the budget for things like affordable housing, for rental assistance. We got money for zero fare transit, not enough, but we did that. And I didn't want those gains to be lost. Because I was scared that if we didn't get them in this budget, they wouldn't be in next year because we don't have money, they wouldn't be in the year after or the year after. Too often these things are placed on the back burner. We need to make sure they’re priorities
Fr. Justin: Right now the buses, as I understand them from our neighbors and from being right here at 31st and Troost which is a major transit corridor, during the COVID crisis, and I don't know for how long, they're going to be free in Kansas City for people. Do you feel like in some way that the COVID-19 situation actually was able to advance some of the more innovative priorities that you wanted to bring forward with regard to housing and transportation? And how do you think that they're going to fair afterwards? Are they going to last after the COVID crisis lifts?
Mayor Lucas: I have been impressed with how quickly we saw that we can adapt and we can find funding to support it. I think that some will last, some will not. Where they last, it's important for us to make sure they're pushed. Zero fare transit is going to be one of those priorities. I think housing, frankly, is going to be another one of those priorities. For the first time in years, the federal government has given us more money for affordable housing. How amazing is that? What we have to make sure we do is resist the temptation to blow it quickly on one project or to the cutest deal that helps us fill a gap somewhere in downtown or even east of downtown and instead saying, wait, wait, wait, let's be methodical about whom we're building this for. That's the work that I'm most interested in. And I think that's what we're going to need to do in connection with this going forward.
Fr. Justin: I appreciate you sharing those things, particularly about transit, because transit is such a major piece of the workforce development equation in Kansas City, but so also is violence and gun violence is something that you've written legislation around. You fought hard to try to reduce the level of violence. First of all, tell me, what have you seen in Kansas City with regard to violence since the stay at home order? Has it increased? Has it decreased? Is it staying the same? What have you been able to tell about that?
Mayor Lucas: I think there have been a few things. So, broadly violent crime is down in Kansas City, but like always, we have negatives in a few key areas: murders and domestic violence. We've seen a spike in domestic violence and we've seen a frustrating consistency in homicides. That gives us one kind of clear answer. That tells us that the issue of violent crime isn't necessarily about people being in a bar or the groups. But instead it's more internalized. It is, perhaps, the pain that you have in a community. And it's actually the relationships and the friction that we have between different gangs and individuals and others, the need for revenge. Well, that tells me is violence is much more internalized. It's much more than increasing police patrols, right? Because there ain't that much to patrol right now. Instead it's actually something that's more about getting inside those root causes of violence.
Fr. Justin: When you talk about root causes though, Mayor, what about mental health? I know that you and I have had lunch at Thelma’s Kitchen before and a lot of attention is paid to things that are incredibly important, like housing. But, you know, at the root of things isn't mental health really being highlighted right now? Don't we, as a city, have a need to address the serious trauma and mental health issues? How are we going to come out of this situation differently with regard to mental health?
Mayor Lucas: Isn't one of the funniest things that we've seen the fact that a lot of people who want us to reopen very quickly have been the ones that have said, “well, and there's gonna be an increase in suicides and mental health issues and all of that.” I love the fact that people care about crime and mental health and all of that. We've got to fund it. We've got to fund it better. We have got to treat it on a level that's commensurate with our investment sometimes in hospitals. I say hospitals versus public health, right? We don't spend nearly enough in public health, but we do actually spend a lot on the healthcare industry. We've got to say that it is as important for us to talk about mental health as it is to talk about health insurance and the insurance business, of which our biggest companies in this region are leaders. And so I hope that the next step and the next phase is how do we expand access to those mental health services? Because you're absolutely right. We're digging sideways in a ditch if we think that we're going to find some way out of it by just not investing in mental health. By the way, that relates to everything ranging from those with housing insecurity, homelessness, violent crime, so many other issues that we deal with each day in our city.
Fr. Justin: I know you and I would agree on this, but it's hard to actualize these priorities. People go to jail not just because they commit a crime, but they commit a crime because there's something underneath that they're trying to solve, or there's trauma, or there's undealt with issues. People lose housing or lose jobs because they don't have the mental health stability to be able to maximize and sustain the opportunities. It's good to teach a man to fish and you can build a pond, you can build them a cabin next to the pond, and they can fish all day, but if they're too depressed to get up the next morning and go fish after you leave, we've wasted even all of that training. I know that you and I agree on that and I know our time is also limited. So we'll have to pick this conversation up about mental health some other time. I'd love to do that to figure out how we are going to innovate and how we're going to fund in the areas of mental health in the same ways that we've been trying to innovate and fund civic development and other priorities. I want to kind of end on a personal note with you, Mayor Quinton, because you grew up, as you've shared very publicly, at times homeless. I've met your mother, she's a wonderful woman, but you told me when you were growing up that you guys lived in a hotel, you were really struggling. And in that your childhood, in that area, was very much like those who are struggling to survive and succeed under the lockdown order outside of employment right now in Kansas City. When you think about the kids that are like Quinton, that are out there right now, and the single moms, that are like your mom, what message would you give them? How would you give them some hope so that they can get through this crisis?
Mayor Lucas: There are always brighter days. And I say that knowing that, and I don't mince words usually, it sucks being poor. I remember going through a summer without any money and you're kind of hungry. You're just surviving. It's hot outside, you don't have any AC, wherever you're staying, you're just living. But if there's anything somebody takes from my story, I hope it is that there's another side to this. There is something that is great about the path that you will go on. And frankly, to not ignore the resources around you. And you may say there are none. But walk into Thelma’s Kitchen, walk into a public library when this is all done, catch a bus. There are a lot more people around who care about your success than you may think. I was blessed to have them along the way, I wouldn't be here without them. It absolutely takes a village and know that there's that village out there.
Fr. Justin: Well, Mayor, I appreciate you sharing that. As we wrap up, how does Kansas City look different? How does Kansas City look different whether it's May 3, May 15, or September 15? How does Kansas City look different coming out of this crisis?
Mayor Lucas: We understand the need to invest in people more. We understand that we can take steps to try to save lives. I hope that also extends to the 150 homicides a year we have, the roughly 150 suicides we have per year. I hope it gets us to take action. I think it will. I plan to be a leader in that conversation and I hope more out there who have the time to watch these things and to think, engage as well. I do. It’s as easy as sending us an email or text, me or Father Justin. We listen. We're happy to change the world really. And it starts one step at a time.
Fr. Justin: Well, Mayor Quinton, I'm looking forward to watching you in leadership. I know you have a huge passion for making a social impact, not just leading through the same workaday life as the mayor. We're rooting for you. And I know that you really have the heart of the constituents, the 5,000 people a year that Reconciliation Services serves, but also you really have the heart of Kansas City. I know you're going to innovate and lead us through this. Again, I appreciate your time today. It's an honor to get to talk to you. I want to invite our listeners to take you up on that opportunity to call you on your cell phone to share the thoughts that you have about Kansas City. So how did they reach you if they want to share their story like you talked about?
Mayor Lucas: It's really easy. My email address is made to be easy. It is mayorq@kcmo.org. My cell phone number is 816-679-1662. Shoot me a text and I'd always be happy to talk.
Fr. Justin: Mayor Quinton Lucas, thanks so much for joining us today on The Social Leader. We'll look forward to talking to you soon. Thank you so much.
Mayor Lucas: Thank you. We'll see you.
Fr. Justin: Alright, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it right from Mayor Quinton Lucas. Had a great conversation about social impact, about leadership, about the future of Kansas City. Really a privilege to have him here. Remember that The Social Leader is a podcast that's sponsored by Reconciliation Services. RS is a community that's trying to bring about racial and economic reconciliation in Kansas City along Troost Avenue, one heart at a time. But more than that, we're interested in bringing people together, the rich, the poor, black and white, East and West, from all over the world who are interested in finding that third way. Realizing that we're going to have to move beyond the workaday world in order to make the social impact to become that great city that we want to be. And now's our opportunity. Make sure that you smash that “like” button. I love when people are engaging on social media. Leave your comments on Facebook or on YouTube. And make sure if you want to stay up to date with all of The Social Leader broadcasts that we're doing, please follow us on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on YouTube. Until next time, please stay in touch. Please help us at Reconciliation Services if you're nearby. And join us next week for the next episode of The Social Leader.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Megan Hyatt Miller, Chief Operating Officer at Michael Hyatt & Co., leading strategic direction, brand management, growth initiatives, and general operations for the leadership coaching company. Megan joined us to talk about leading in the face of uncertainty, staying focused while working from home with her five children, seeing opportunities to grow in leadership right now, and the responsibility of leaders to "go first" even in their vulnerability.
EPISODE 4 - TRANSCRIPT
Fr. Justin Mathews: Hello and welcome friends to The Social Leader, episode 4. Today my guest is Megan Hyatt Miller. I look forward to having this conversation about leadership and making a social impact. Stay tuned.
Fr. Justin: Welcome Megan, how are you?
Megan Hyatt Miller: I'm great, Father Justin. Thanks for having me today. It's great to be here.
Fr. Justin: It's great to have you here. I'm very excited to introduce our audience to you. You've been a longtime friend of mine. You just are doing some incredible work in the areas of leadership and envision. You're an incredible mom and I just can't wait for people to get to know you. So let's introduce you. Megan Hyatt Miller is the COO of Michael Hyatt & Company. She is an author, a podcaster, a coach, a live speaker. You work with your family, your dad, Michael Hyatt, to put out some incredible products like the Full Focus Planner, which here at Reconciliation Services, we use religiously. I have to tell you, it's a part of our culture. But what did I miss? Tell everybody about you and what I missed about you, Megan, so they get to know you.
Megan: Well, thank you for that. That was very generous. You know, Michael Hyatt & Company is all about leadership development. We're really a leadership development company that helps overwhelmed but successful leaders to get the focus they need, which right now I feel like is more important than ever and more challenging than ever, so that they are able to have what we call the double win, which is winning at work, but also succeeding at life. We feel like winning at work is not enough. We really want to see our clients and our customers succeed in their life as a whole. And I think that involves some of the things that we're going to talk about today. So that's really our mission. As you said, I am a mom of five kids, ages almost 19 in two more weeks to 1, we just adopted a baby girl. Three of those children are adopted, two are my step kids, so we have a very unique family. It's busy, but it's wonderful. Like everybody else, we're trying to figure out how my husband and I do our work from home with all the kids home. So it's an exciting time.
Fr. Justin: You, like my wife, are a saint. Working at home from all of the things that you do with five kids and so many people out there are doing it. I think that's a great place to launch off. I’d rather start with the personal then jump into leadership. I think everybody in our audience knows that at Reconciliation Services and on The Social Leader we're really talking about how to have a greater social impact through leadership. But before we jump into that, I really want to know about how you're surviving right now. What are some of the hacks, the tips, the tricks that you're using to sort of stay sane in these uncertain times?
Megan: Well, it's easier said than done. I think we're reading a lot in the news, and just experiencing personally, how challenging it is to maintain a sense of equilibrium, even if we are, maybe one of our kids or our spouse or a roommate is having challenges and it's just tough. So I think you know a few things that I'm doing that certainly are not perfect, but have worked well for me. One of the things I'm doing is moving every day. Every afternoon when I'm finished working, I go out with my husband, Joel, and we go on a walk around our neighborhood. Normally we're leaving our kids except for the baby at home. They're watching their shows, we get a little time to ourselves. And that's really helpful. I read an article from Dr. Curt Thompson, who is really an amazing author and physician, talking about the challenge of embodiment right now. We're so disconnected in this virtual space, this like Zoom-world that we're living in, from a normal human experience. And one of the things that he recommends is to move every day and preferably in several small increments so you can kind of get back into your body. So I think that's really important, especially for leaders, especially if you're spending most of your time on Zoom all day every day, like I am, like you probably are. So that's really helpful. Just get outside and move. I think the other thing is having a plan for your day. That may sound obvious, but you mentioned at the beginning that one of the products that we have at Michael Hyatt & Company is called the Full Focus Planner. It's a 90 day planner and in it it has a whole system for productivity and personal achievement. One of the practices in that planner is that you identify every day, what we call your Daily Big Three. Those are the tasks that are truly important and urgent, usually that you must accomplish to make progress on your weekly objectives. What I do in the morning is I have time in prayer that's quick. It's like five to 10 minutes max, because I'm doing this before my baby gets up. And I'm getting out my Full Focus Planner for the day, I'm identifying my Big Three, and I'm writing down my schedule for the day. I feel like that gives me two things, a sense of control and a sense of accomplishment. Both of which are really important and not a default right now, so that's been helpful.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, absolutely. I was just talking with my wife, Jodi, today about how it felt like when the adrenaline was really high in the first 30 days after the pandemic. We're recording this during the time that we're still on quarantine and in lockdown during the global pandemic. I think because of all the anxiety in those first 30 days we were going on a walk together, just the two of us. And it's not that we don't spend time together but we both live such busy lives and we have three teenage kids. That moving was really helpful. I think when we get stressed that moving is something that we forget to do. We also forget to breathe. We forget to hydrate. We forget to take care of ourselves. What are some of the other ways right now that you're really taking care of yourself so that you can be present as a leader in your family and in your company?
Megan: Well, this is kind of radical. But to your point, we had that big adrenaline rush at the beginning, first two or three weeks. It was really stressful, but you just had the sense that I have so much energy and we can just take on whatever challenges we're facing. We found that our people really hit a wall on the other side of that. We have about 40 employees and on the other side of that, we hit a wall, and we ended up shortening our work day, from nine to three, because we have parents. People who are parents who are trying to work from home with toddlers and other kids. It's really stressful and they're trying to do the same work that they would normally do with an unbelievable amount of stress, right? We're carrying so much right now that we don't even necessarily understand. And so that has been a real secret to our success. Incidentally, we haven't lost any productivity. We're still able to accomplish the things that we need to accomplish. But there's time for people to rejuvenate. So that has been a real key. Personally for me, like I said earlier, I've been moving. I've also been prioritizing going to bed early. I just turn into a pumpkin after 9:30. My husband does not. He could stay up till two in the morning, but I've got to be in bed at 9:30. And it is really critical.
Fr. Justin: If we're gonna have that massive impact, if we're going to have beyond our normal leadership impact, if we're going to make a social impact in our community that brings us from a transactional leadership to a transformational leadership where we move beyond the corporate norms and get into something that has a longer or more eternal value, really taking care of yourself is important. I wish I could say that I've been going to bed early like you, but I'll be honest, I've been struggling with keeping my heart and my mind off of the news, off of the phone. Has that been a struggle for you to keep your focus? Or maybe just to keep doing deep work? Has it been hard for you?
Megan: It has been hard and I think that we're all kind of experiencing that together. One of the things that has helped me is to just limit my news consumption to certain parts of the day, to not be deep in the news right before I go to bed. It seems like all the big stuff comes out in the morning anyway and that kind of tends to be my time, after I've done my quiet time and planning for the day and so forth, I'll tend to check in on the news. I do think that helps, but it is hard. I think we have to be kind with ourselves right now. We're all struggling in different ways and that presents itself in different ways. Maybe you're having trouble sleeping. Maybe you're more irritable than normal as a leader or at home. Maybe you use up all of your strength during your day at your job and then you come home and your family is just one thing too many. That's just a reality for a lot of us. I think it helps to be kind yourself as a leader. I think this question around what you are doing to kind of support yourself and have self care is important. As leaders right now, we're not just taking care of ourselves in a stressful time and all that that entails, we're also caring for our people who are under enormous stress. The emotional need that they have that normally would be outside of the scope of our work and our companies is totally now within the scope of our day-to-day work. I'm regularly dealing with issues with people where they're really struggling personally and that shows up at work. I think that's just our reality.
Fr. Justin: You hit on something really important, which is the mental health piece of it. At Reconciliation Services probably 45 days ago, we instituted something that we call the mental health hour. We're still an essential service and we're doing social services and mental health and food work, and everything has ramped up. There is tremendous need right now in Kansas City and particularly at this time all across the United States, so many people who are working poor. In particular, this is really hitting communities of color harder than it's hitting some of us. One of the things that we noticed was that the staff really had done a whole lot during the day, partly because there's adrenaline, but then by the end of the day, there was just this sense of drain. And I actually heard on one of your podcasts that I shared with our team, there's this sense of being a fountain or being a drain and which one are you going to be. So in order to try to help our staff who are helpers and caregivers in the community remain a fountain, emotionally and spiritually and with their own mental health, we instituted a shorter work day as well, where if they want to work till five they can, but we have a new little code in the timesheet where they can just say I'm taking a mental health hour and it doesn't count against normal PTO, it's just additional PTO. Taking that time to rest is really important, isn't it?
Megan: I think it really is, because you can't just focus only on productivity right now. If you play that game, that's a short term game. I think you really have to play the long game, which is getting your whole team through this in one piece where people are integrated, where they're healthy mentally, they have the support that they need, so they can come out on the other side, and not just fall over the finish line, but really be standing strong. That is a huge leadership challenge for all of us.
Fr. Justin: I want to pivot to talk just a little bit about a subject that I know you've thought a whole lot about, and that's trauma. While we talk about mental health and uncertain times, there really is another layer. If you've experienced trauma, or if you've grown up in an environment where trauma is not something that's just done to you, but it's sort of the air that you breathe, that makes it all the more difficult to be resilient when real uncertainty happens. What's been your experience as a leader, and as a mom, and as an individual trying to work your way through trauma in this pandemic? How do you lead folks who've experienced significant trauma right now? What do we do?
Megan: Oh, my gosh, this is such a great question and I think it's not something that's been talked enough about. I wish that it were being talked more about. A great resource is Bessel van der Kolk, who wrote the book The Body Keeps The Score. It is such a great book. He's been doing some great videos talking about trauma and kind of how to think about that right now, if that's been your experience. I point people to that. First of all, I think I think this is a top area of concern. This is something in my own personal life that has been kind of central. We have three of our five children who've experienced quite a bit of trauma. As I said, three of our five kids are adopted. No child is available for adoption who did not first go through an incredible amount of trauma, so that's something that has been part of our reality that we've been dealing with for years for them and really trying to think through it. Additionally, my husband and I have had some secondary trauma as a consequence of that which we have worked through ourselves. Then of course, in the context of our business, many of our people have experienced trauma. Some of those things I know, some of them I don't know, it doesn't really matter. What it means is that the way you respond to this is so different than if you sort of had a blank slate, if anybody actually has a blank slate. I think it's just important to have that in your mind to remember that when you experience reactions in yourself. Maybe you see a piece of news and you find yourself kind of manically responding to that, like getting really busy, or you have a situation where you see a team member who can't stop working or who can't kind of get themselves going. Those are kind of two opposite responses to trauma. Sometimes there's a lot going on under the surface. I think it's helpful for all of us to remember that there is more going on for ourselves, for our children, and for the people that we're leading or serving than we could ever imagine. If we try to just respond to the surface issue, we're not going to be very successful. So just slow down, right? We have to ask questions, we have to be compassionate, we have to try to provide support in ways that maybe as business leaders or nonprofit leaders, we're not used to. You guys, I think, have an advantage in this in that those are things that you're thinking about already at Reconciliation Services. I think you could educate the rest of us with that. But I think for those of us who are kind of in a results-oriented culture, we have to think about it differently.
Fr. Justin: Right. I think you bring up an interesting thing that definitely ties into The Social Leader and what we're trying to do. For us, The Social Leader is trying to bring on leaders that are not only succeeding at work and life, but who also are going that extra step and saying that part of success is not just having a strong ROI, but trying to figure out in my own emphasis, my own sphere, how can I have a social return on investment, whether I'm a foreman on a construction job, or I'm the CEO. Each of us has the ability, if we get educated, to be able to have that deeper social impact and to practice what we call social leadership. Coming up, when the world opens up again, we're actually going to be launching an experiential learning skills based learning program called The Social Leader, so stay tuned for that at Reconciliation Services. You really have had some exposure yourself both in leading a company focused on productivity, being a mom who's had kids and people in your workplace that have experienced trauma, you've had an opportunity to become more educated around the areas of trauma and mental health. How do you feel like becoming more educated about trauma and about social issues has helped you grow in your leadership? How has that helped you expand your framework from which you can make decisions. And what's been the outcome of that?
Megan: Well, it's a great question. It's funny when we're thinking about leadership, we often think about the hard skills: Can you deliver results? Can you hire successfully? Can you produce new products? Can you take market share? However, I think the biggest challenge that any leader faces, and I find this in my own leadership and I find it in the 400 clients that we coach, are relational. The biggest challenge is our relationships. If you think about your own leadership and something that you've been struggling with, performance issues maybe or results that you're not achieving, behind that is really something rooted in relationship. So the soft skills around understanding how people work, what drives people, what gets in the way for people, where do they get stuck, where do you get stuck is critical for us to be able to do the things that we feel like are the real leadership. The real leadership is actually the relational work and so I think anything that develops our self awareness, our social awareness to get out of our own experience and understand someone else's experience and be able to adapt our approach in a way that's effective for those people that reaches people in a different way, is really critical. I think that that's what we need now more than ever. I also think it's become clear to us that the boundaries between our professional lives in our work and our personal lives and the personal lives of those people that were leading were not nearly as strong as we thought, We actually have a lot more integration. It's probably the nicest way to say it between those two parts of our life.
Fr. Justin: How do you feel like this situation and our wide global exposure to this sense of vulnerability is increasing our ability to have that relational connection with our employees, with our family, and with our friends? Is it building what some have called sort of that vulnerability virtue in us? And how do you see that happening in your own life?
Megan: I think it certainly can. I think it's a decision though. I think as a leader, sometimes what can happen, and I felt this temptation myself and then decided that's just not how I want to show up, is that on the one hand, I need to project a demeanor of confidence for my team, I need to be decisive, I need to make the decisions that are gonna keep us healthy as a company and protect jobs, for example. It’s the top top thing everybody's thinking about. On the other hand, I'm a real person. I'm a real person with real kids who's really locked in my house with five kids every day, and have my own anxieties, my own past traumas. And if I deny those things, and I'm unwilling to speak to them, my people are going to feel like that's my expectation of them as well and then we're all not processing things and then it's all just going to come home to roost later. So I feel leaders have to go first. We have to go first with the risky decisions. We have to go first with the hard conversations. But we also have to go first with vulnerability. And if you can challenge yourself as a leader to come through this and just acknowledge those things, I don't actually think it takes your power away or makes you less strong. I think it does the opposite. Because you’re now communicating in a much deeper level of empathy, which is maybe the most powerful of all.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, obviously, I'm a priest and so I'll speak from my tradition as an Orthodox Christian priest. Really what you're saying hits home when I think about the fact that it's actually through suffering, that joy comes into the world. It's not from pushing away the suffering or pushing away the difficult feelings that we’re actually going to become powerful. It's that true power comes and really that true personal joy in our life comes when we allow and embrace that suffering to be a part of our daily experience. And that's difficult. When you talk about trauma and you talk about these mental health issues, the other thing that comes to mind are all of the visions, all of the awareness that's been done about diversity and equity and inclusion. I'm really grateful for the limited media coverage, but the media coverage that there has been about the real health equity disparities that are happening right now during COVID. Because black and brown people and indigenous people are suffering at higher and higher numbers, even dying at higher numbers than folks who are white. And so that is an important thing to stop and look at. Right now a lot of leaders in companies, COOs, CEOs, Senior VPS have talked for a long time about how we are going to shift diversity and inclusion in our company. What do you think the opportunity is right now as a woman who's leading a fast growing company? What's the opportunity for you to maybe actualize some of those priorities as we come out of this COVID crisis?
Megan: Well, one of the things that you brought up a second ago was the concept of suffering, that idea of what do we do with suffering? Do we push it away? Do we deny it? Do we try to escape it? How do we handle it? I think one of the gifts of this crisis is the ability to understand the suffering of other people in a way that maybe felt distant before or not our concern, if I'm going to just kind of be crass about it, where you’re sort of not going to edit your own thinking. I think we all know now that we are interconnected in a way that we did not fully understand before. And in that we have a responsibility to one another that's different and more urgent than we knew. I'm speaking “we” as in those of us who are upper middle class and white that had the kind of buffer of privilege. That the privilege has not been stripped away. In fact, it's probably more stark now than ever and we understand that in a way that viscerally that we maybe didn't. But the veil has been stripped away, we understand differently that our neighbors are suffering. We understand that I can go to my grocery store and buy 10 packs of toilet paper, before that was not something I could do. But my neighbors half a mile away in public housing can't do that. And that's a problem. That's something we have to think about. So I think this is a very timely thing to think about. It's something I'm really wrestling with myself. In our own family, racial reconciliation has been something that's been very important to us, a conversation that we've had for a long time. You were visiting with us not that many months ago and we talked a little bit about that. That's part of my professional history as well, but it's not something that we have brought into our company in an active way, in the way that I would like to. It's been kind of more personal, though our staff is fairly diverse, actually, which is great. We've made that a priority in our hiring and recruiting, but I don't think that's enough. I think the question is what's our relationship to the community? What's our responsibility to the community from the position that we're standing in? And I don't know the answer exactly to that. But I know that it's important. And I know that it's more urgent now than it was previously. The awareness of that is more urgent.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you bring up some good points. Sort of what I'm hearing you say is we've got a move from awareness to actualization of those priorities. This is something I've been thinking a lot about. In fact, I'm planning on doing a podcast about it soon. There is going to be a tidal wave of 10’s of millions of people coming back into the workforce when the world opens up again. Millions of people are going to be applying. First of all, how are those people going to differentiate themselves? I really believe that people who are trained or who are thinking like social leaders, people who want to have a larger social impact beyond just their normal work impact, they're going to stand out when folks are coming to hire. That kind of community mindset also isn't just about charity and philanthropy. It's about creativity. It's about innovation. It's about seeing how can we, as a company, not only embrace diversity, because it's good, it’s moral, right? But actually, how do we see diversity, equity, and inclusion as a superior growth model for our company and for our region? And when we start talking about the ROI of companies, I think we start hitting at the bottom line. Now we get people's attention. Well, this is the opportunity right now, there's a tidal wave coming of people that are going to be looking to be hired. As you think about your leadership and your company, how do you see yourself moving beyond the old conception of charity and giving from your excess as a company or as an individual? How do you get beyond the charity bucket and get really into a deeper engagement as a social leader in the community? Have you guys thought about that? Have you done anything in that regard? Or are you thinking about doing something like that?
Megan: I'm definitely thinking about doing something like that. In fact, it is on my list of goals this year to develop a task force around this, made up of a diverse group of people to really pull the people into that group who have diverse perspectives and say, what's our impact going to be, where do we want to serve, where we want to learn, where we want to grow, where do we want to make a contribution. And I think that’s kind of what you're getting at. That it's not just about serving. It's also about learning. It's about relationships. How can we develop two way relationships that are win-win where we're both having the opportunity to contribute and serve and learn? Because there's a lot we need to learn. There's a lot we need to understand. It's not just about, “hey, we have it all figured out, we're a successful company and we're going to come give some things to you because we can and that makes us feel good about ourselves.” That's not enough. I think what we're really looking at is transformation, but transformation in both directions. Not assuming that the people that need transformation are just the people we're serving, but that we ourselves need transformation. That can only happen through relationships. So it is something I'm thinking about and I would love to hear your answer to that question. How would you guide me? Because I would imagine that I represent a lot of people that are listening to the show that are similarly like newly awakened to this needs to be a top priority, and yet, how do I actualize that?
Fr. Justin: Yeah, and that would be another podcast when I come on your show. You have a much larger audience. But that is also what The Social Leader program is all about and what this show and the podcasts that are coming are about, trying to glean from 22 years of nonprofit leadership from myself and then trying to glean from our team who are on the frontlines, Master's level social workers who are doing strength-based case management motivational interviewing, following clinical and data driven measures to be able to help bring that transformation. I'll be honest with you, I've often thought that one of the things that has worked for me, and I'll use the Full Focus Planner as a good example that you guys publish at Michael Hyatt & Company, is when I've been able to bring internal order it helps to calm the external chaos. Usually we go the other way. We usually try to calm the external chaos and bring order there and then hope it calms down the inside but actually the inverse is true. Our thoughts determine our lives, really fixing the way that we think. I've thought about your company and some of the tools as they stand. If there were a way to be able to teach the folks that we work with, low and moderate income folks who don't have access to 30 extra dollars for a planner, things like that. But if you could be able to deliver to them the life lessons and the tools that you deliver to people like me and others in the corporate world, I believe it could make a really big difference. Those are some of the gaps in access that are sort of not thought about. So I would challenge you and would love to actually think through and brainstorm with Michael Hyatt & Company and anybody listening. I really believe companies have the opportunity to do more than give charity and have more than like a charity committee. They can think like social ventures, like people who crave, in entrepreneurship, the ability to have a social impact to bring a social return on investment while they're bringing that return on investment that they're calling for.
Megan: And by the way, one of the things if you're a leader that you know, when you're hiring, right now, when you're hiring millennials in particular, they care so much about meaning and purpose. And this is critical. I mean, this is not only good for the world, good for you, good for the people you're serving. This is a competitive advantage for your company to have this figured out. Because people who are considering coming to work for you and who are buying your products want to know what do you stand for, how are you investing, how are you giving back? We had a guy on our coaching Q&A call recently, his name is Philip Stutz. He had done a big study on consumer behavior right now, interviewed 5000 people, processed the data, and came up with the conclusions. His background is in marketing, so this was kind of like how you think about marketing. The things that people are caring about right now are: Am I safe? Are the people I'm dealing with trustworthy? And are they helping others? Again, that idea of interconnectedness is really important right now to people. They understand it doesn't feel good to be individualistic and just out for your own gain. That doesn't play well right now. It was never good, but I think right now it feels particularly tone deaf. So this is relevant right now. And obviously it has eternal significance. But it's also relevant from a business perspective right now. And I think that that should help to motivate us all to get it figured out.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I really agree with you. I think that this issue of becoming a social leader in every company, from a minerals mining company to a productivity company, and beginning to shift your thinking as a leader to ask yourself: How can I as a company built into the economics and the system of what I'm doing? How can I have a social impact? Those questions, like you said, are important to millennials. So it's not only going to be a bottom line question, but it's a bottom line when you think about engagement of employees and retention of employees. The bus has come and left on that and if companies aren't already thinking, if leaders aren't already thinking about how do I move beyond the charity bucket and become an educated social leader, you're going to be left in the dust. The other thing that you said I think is really important. One of my favorite podcasters, I'm kind of crazy, so I like really out there entrepreneurial stuff, but there's a guy who I listen to all the time named Alex Charfen. His manifesto just fires me up every day that he gives. I love that guy. He talks about right now, in this crisis, that people aren't looking for vitamins anymore, they're looking for painkillers. People are not looking for that feel good extra thing that I can buy, that's an additive to my life, that's not essential. They're looking for painkillers. People are out of work, and companies are needing talent, and the world has shifted. So the companies, and I will say, the leaders, no matter whether you're at the top or in the middle, or the bottom of a company working your way, the leaders that can shift their thinking to become those social leaders who are trying to learn alleviate pain in the community, and then our company, those are the ones that are going to are going to thrive and succeed. And so I just really appreciate you bringing out all the things that you've shared with us today. You're such an inspirational leader. I know we have a very significant number of women on our staff here and I keep trying to share your material and content. In fact, two weeks ago on a Thursday all staff meeting, which was virtual and by Zoom, we actually shared the podcast that you all put out and that you led on being resilient in difficult times. You're a really inspirational person, a dear friend, a great leader. I want to give you the final word as we close out. What challenge would you give those who are listening and those who want to become better leaders and social leaders? What would you leave us with as we close today?
Megan: Well, thank you for those kind words first of all, Father, Justin. I really appreciate it. It's always a joy to be with you. I wish we just lived closer, so we could hang out more often. I think this is an incredible time and an incredibly important time for leadership. It's never been more important. It's never been more vital. People have never needed it more or been more dependent on leaders right now to help us find our way through this, to help us understand it and make meaning out of it. I think that's really the opportunity that's on the table. I think what you're offering people in this concept of social leadership and social entrepreneurship is the opportunity to do this at a level that many of us have never thought about before. So I would just encourage you, as a leader, to expand your vision, to think bigger, to ask what this crisis makes possible that you may have never considered for yourself as a leader, for your company, and for your impact in the world? Because I think we have an opportunity like we've never had before. So thanks again. This has been really, really great to be with you.
Fr. Justin: Thank you. This is wonderful. You left us on the perfect note. Thank you again for your time and we'll look forward to having you back on the show again sometime soon.
Megan: Thanks, Father Justin.
Fr. Justin: All right, everybody. I really appreciate you joining us today. I want to remind you that The Social Leader is sponsored by Reconciliation Services. Please follow us on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on YouTube. Make sure to smash that “like” button and subscribe so that you can get updates. We're doing The Social Leader podcast at least once a week, usually 10am on Tuesday, but like today, when we get the opportunity to have really special guests come and speak to us we'll be throwing those out there more and more often. Also make sure that you visit Reconciliation Services online and understand how your gift to Reconciliation Services right now can make an incredible difference. We need you right now. We're literally serving more than 350 people a day some days out of Thelma’s Kitchen, which is our social venture here in Kansas City that's feeding the community. We're also offering lots of transformational social services, therapy services, and economic community building. Whether you're here in Kansas City and want to support us, or whether you're inspired by the work by RS, we need your help, especially right now, during this pandemic. Don't forget, there are many, many people who cannot shelter in place. Many people who don't have access to hygiene. Many people who already started, as Megan said, sort of below the zero line and are really struggling to survive and succeed. That's what Reconciliation Services is all about. That's what we're doing in the community. And that's really what social leaders are thinking about: how can I move from a transactional leadership to a community-oriented transformational leadership? So stay tuned. I'm very excited, coming up in the next show we're going to have Mayor Quinton Lucas here in Kansas City. It's going to be an incredible conversation about leadership in Kansas City during this time of COVID-19. Until next time, again brought to you by Reconciliation Services, I'm Father Justin. We look forward to seeing you back on The Social Leader very soon.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with Dr. Tom Curan, Senior VP, Executive Director, and Chief Scientific Officer at Children's Mercy Research Institute. Dr. Tom highlights the importance of checking your assumption at the door and doing the “right thing” for the “right reason” when it comes to leading.Children's Mercy Research Institute
EPISODE 3 - TRANSCRIPT
Fr. Justin Mathews: Well hello my friends. Good morning. My name is Father Justin Mathews. You are about to join The Social Leader, episode number three. You're not gonna want to miss this conversation with Dr. Tom Curran of Children's Mercy Hospital Stick around! We'll be right back.
Welcome back to The Social Leader, the show where we talk all about the best of business, faith, and philanthropy for social good, where we're trying to hone our leadership and learn more about how to be social leaders and how to have leadership that makes a community impact. I am super excited today to welcome Dr. Curran. Dr. Curran is an incredible researcher here at Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City. Welcome Dr. Curran. How are you today?
Dr. Tom Curran: I’m very good, thank you.
Fr. Justin: I want to tell everybody this morning that the show is sponsored by Reconciliation Services at 31st and Troost. Dr. Curran, you have an incredibly long title, but I want to make sure everybody knows who you are. You are the Senior Vice President, the Executive Director, and the Chief Scientific Officer at Children's Mercy Research Institute. You have an incredible history. You have led pediatric research at a number of institutions. Now, thankfully, here in Kansas City at Children's Mercy Hospital, you've had focus on pediatric brain tumors on pharmacology with kids. You've been published over 290 times you've been cited over 50,000 times in numerous articles. It's an honor to have you on The Social Leader this morning. Did I miss anything? About your history or about your title?
Dr. Curran: Well, there are other things, but they best be left unsaid.
Fr. Justin: Well, I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you today and I want to jump right in. You know, one of the things that when you and I talked last that we were really focused on in our conversation, was this idea about equitable access to care, particularly for kids right now. In this time when everybody is struggling with COVID-19 and when the hospitals are really getting pressed, you know, equitable access to health care is something that's been in the news and it's something that's been highlighted. Talk to me a little bit about the research that you've done, what the current situation is at Children's Mercy hospital, and generally, how do we improve access to care for all in our region?
Dr. Curran: Let me start by talking about where we're at right now at Children's Mercy. The hospital is still functioning. One hundred percent focus is on clinical care. To a large extent research has been pushed out, so we're working remotely. That is to protect our frontline caregivers and patients and families because any additional encounters increase the risk of virus transmission. We've also canceled most elective surgeries and other treatments. So the hospital is not very busy right now so we can focus on the COVID-19 patients. Fortunately, children are not as badly affected as the aging population so we have a relatively small number of patients. That's a good thing, but we're, of course, very concerned as to how this will take off moving forward. So right now, we've actually put a lot of thought into what we can learn from this current situation to improve our ability to deliver health care and to integrate research because ultimately research is the answer. We don't have treatments and we don't have a vaccine right now. Those are critical if we're going to overcome this global pandemic. And the integration of research with a hospital operation is key to enabling those discoveries to impact the improvement of health in everyone, not just children.
Fr. Justin: When you talk about equitable access to care and improving the health of everyone, including the kids in our region, can you break down just very simply for those who might not be familiar with the idea of equitable access to care? Can you describe what it is that we're talking about at the root and why there isn't equitable access, generally within the medical system?
Dr. Curran: So the concept is actually an old concept. It's really the concept of precision medicine: treat each patient as an individual, treat the whole family. The information you collect is relevant. Rather than thinking of patients as categories of disease, one size doesn't fit all, so tailoring response to the individual. If you accept that premise, you have to accept that all patients should be treated the same way because that's the only way you can learn, if everyone is given the same high quality level of service. It's challenging in the US system, because we have a very complicated care system and mix that actually gets in the way of being able to apply that equally. Now the situation for children is somewhat better. All children really do have access to health care. But there are economic barriers, there are sociological barriers, there are issues of trust, all of which have to be overcome. But if we truly embrace that original concept of precision medicine, which is it's all about the individual, all those other things will fall into place.
Fr. Justin: When you talk about precision medicine, I know one of the things that you've worked on in your leadership at Children's Mercy Research Institute with regard to equitable access is you've talked about overcoming barriers through innovations. What are some of the innovations that hospital systems, or in particular Children's Mercy, has put in place in order to make sure that everybody has equitable access in terms of transportation or economics or other barriers that could be there? What innovations have you put in place? And then how do we track those innovations to know that they're working? I mean, it's not something to be assumed that there's just going to be equitable access for kids.
Dr. Curran: So the way we do that in research is we collect data. For example, we have pioneered the use of genome sciences, genomics, to treat pediatric diseases including rare diseases. There are many barriers to getting access to that higher level technology and it's very expensive. It's not currently covered by most insurers. So our solution there was to start a research project and offer anyone who qualifies the opportunity to sign up for that research project. If you sign up for that project, the genomic testing is free. It's all covered. Now to ensure that we're really being representative, we collect data on all participants and then we study the statistics of those data. And that's actually really important from the scientific perspective. In science, we study differences. In fact, we celebrate differences. If everything was the same, we'd have nothing to study. By having as diverse a population and a range of diverse properties and perspectives, the science is better. So it's very important for us when we run these research studies to be sure that we're reaching as much of that diversity as possible, because that's what drives the quality of the study.
Fr. Justin: One of the things that you've talked about is really taking this patient-centered approach if we're going to achieve health care access for all, if we're going to have some kind of equitable access to care and make that a priority in our leadership. One of the things I hear as an undercurrent of what you're saying is that we've really got to not treat just a symptom or not just look at kind of big data, but we have to really drill down into a patient-centered approach. How does a patient-centered approach lead to better outcomes? Tangibly what's happening in a patient-centered approach that's different from another approach, and how does that lead to better outcomes and care?
Dr. Curran: This is really a kind of a throwback to original medicine, sitting down and listening to patients and families. My physician colleagues tell me about this all the time. They have so much pressure on them to process patients quickly, to fill in forms, they often don't have the time to spend that they would really like to. Many of them have shared with me insights that came through that conversation with a mother. Mother's pretty much know their children, and when a mother makes a comment that something is unusual for her child, the physician’s ears prick up. Then they dig into that conversation to try to understand what is unique about this individual child that the mother already knows, but is somehow not being perceived in the medical system. If we simply follow the symptoms, we're missing the underlying causes. Now, again, that goes back to the way physicians historically have dealt with patients and families by really understanding the entire family circumstance. All that background information plays in too. It's almost like a detective story sometimes. We at Children's Mercy see some very rare and unusual conditions and the obvious answers are usually not correct. Digging into that next level of information to uncover that the underlying causes turns out to be very important in those very challenging cases.
Fr Justin: You said something that reminded me of Dr. Martin Luther King from a Birmingham Jail. One of the pieces of the letter that he wrote said that even the most interested social analyst certainly wants to go beyond the symptoms and get to root causes. One of the things that you talked about there was listening to a mother who might know something is off, looking at that family system, and treating that opportunity to listen as not just something to the side of patient care, but really a way to get a glimpse at the root of patient care. I think a lot about leadership, and I know we're talking about scientific research and that's your forte, and certainly that is not my forte, but one of the areas that I've spent a lot of time thinking about is how do we translate our desire for equitable access to care and the innovations around that and a patient-centered approach, a holistic approach, this desiring to get at the root causes? How do we translate those things into our everyday leadership? Now, there are a lot of people listening who aren't in the medical field, they're not researchers, but I know that you and I've talked a lot about leadership in general and you have quite a depth of wisdom about that from your years of leadership in various locations. How do we apply these gleanings to our everyday leadership as leaders in whatever field that we're in?
Dr. Curran: So let me work with that term “translate,” because that's something that we work on as the kind of science that translates discoveries into new interventions, or treatments, or medicine. It's a very difficult field because you come into that field and you know the answer that you want to get. You want to have a treatment that helps people so they feel better and they do better. That means you have to constantly be on guard to check your assumptions. Because if you go into the process with that strong assumption, you start to bias the data. You have to step back from that. We're seeing this in the COVID-19 outbreak. There are experimental treatments and the scientists, like Anthony Facui, get up on TV and say, “I don't know that the data is really there. It's promising, but…” That's really important. Now that's very different from a political statement or the kind of optimistic statement that says, “hey, it's going to work because we need it to work and we really want it to work.” Well, every scientist wants their treatment to work, particularly those treatments that help children, but we have to be so careful to be objective, to do the controls, to segregate the information, to really look beyond the superficial. Be wary when you think it's working the way you want it to work. Second guess yourself. Go back to first principles. Have an independent metric. Ask “did it really go the way that I wanted it to go?” You take that scientific approach and it's kind of humbling. I often tell people that the way I run my research operation now, the way I'm running the Children's Mercy Research Institute, it's based on all the mistakes I made before. I remember them all. You really need to own your mistakes and then figure out the learning that they provide. Now it's great to have successes, but I have to tell you I remember the mistakes more than I remember the successes because I learned way more from those mistakes.
Fr. Justin: You bring up a common entrepreneurial saying, this idea of failing fast and really embracing our mistakes and pivoting. So in your work in leadership at Children's Mercy and as you see this need to translate our good intentions, how do we as leaders begin to practice this work of translation for ourselves? If there were sort of three things that we needed to take on as leaders? One that you just said was we've got to embrace our mistakes, we've got to not shy away from our failing. What would be a few other things that we need to focus on as leaders?
Dr. Curran: Keep keeping your eye on that long term prize. It's so important, and this is true of all careers. I tell young scientists to establish your goal early on. Know where you want to go and then be persistent. Persistence is probably the strongest criteria for success in almost all endeavors. Don't let yourself get burdened with the failures you'll have. You will have failures. You will trip and fall, but be persistent and keep the vision in mind. In our case, that's the healthy child. Keep in mind, that's what we want. We want that healthy, happy child. We want that family to thrive. Every decision we make every turn in the path, we should keep in mind what that long term goal is. So that level of focus I think, is very important.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, those are three really good points. Number one: embracing our mistakes and learning from them. Number two: Keeping our eye on that long term goal. Why are we here? Why do we get up in the morning? What's our path towards that goal? Then persistence. That word is really important right now, especially in this time when people are at home or they're working on the front line. There's a lot of frustration. Mental health is a big struggle for people right now from the work that I'm doing on Troost Avenue with our team at Reconciliation Services. One of the things that's really difficult is to just be persistent, whether you're looking for housing, or you need an ID but the DMV is closed, or you need access to health care but you don't have the insurance. Those three things of embracing our mistakes, keeping our eye on the long term goal, and persistence are really powerful concepts. I think translating those into our own universe is important. You're a researcher, you track the data. What are the things that we need to do when we're applying these concepts to our own life as leaders? How do we track that? Or how do you track that in your own life? Where does the data come from and then how do you apply it in your life as a leader.?
Dr. Curran: So there are of course, many sources of data. You really want to rely on the robust sources that are carefully documented, whether real metrics that go with them. I do often talk about gut feeling or subconscious insight, and it does exist. Your subconscious mind sometimes makes links, logical links that are not apparent on the surface, but that's not enough. You have to then back that up with the rigorous logic that comes from looking at real data. And real data goes back to the source. We've had many situations in science where scientific publications don't stand the scrutiny of time and they get overturned and shown, wow, that was a mistake. Well, those mistakes were always in there and if you look at the raw underlying data, as opposed to the processed information, you're closer to understanding that truth. So I really recommend people look at the unvarnished truth and sometimes that's tough when it comes to leadership. It means questioning your own perceptions and your own intrinsic biases. That's the unvarnished truth and you need to know that to be able to gauge how you should respond moving forward to challenging situations.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, the unvarnished truth is hard to find sometimes when we're actually looking at our own heart. When you think about the unvarnished truth about yourself, it gets a little bit uncomfortable. What do you do, personally, to make sure that you're seeing the unvarnished truth about yourself? Do you have any kind of practices or things that you maintain to keep that level of awareness?
Dr. Curran: Um, that's a really good question. I don't know if I want to get into all of my unvarnished truths, but it means just dropping all the pretensions and looking at, well, what is the greater good? What is the outcome here? The stage I’m at in my career I don't have any personal ambitions. It's irrelevant to me whether I get recognition or accolades, but that's because I've got the gift of time. I can look back and say, “yeah, I did this, I did that,” but now I'm really focused on the children. At those early stages of my career, every now and again, I had to take a step back and say, “is that for the kids or is that for me?” And when I came to “maybe that was mostly for me,” I dropped it. That was really hard to remove that selfish aspect because we all have it. We're all ego driven. We all like to think of ourselves as we're the good people and we're doing the right thing. But make sure you're doing the right thing for the right reason and it's not a personal or ego driven issue. That's probably one of the most difficult things to deal with.
Fr. Justin: One of the things that we talked about before the show today was that you reminded me of that old adage that you can determine the quality of a great society by how we treat the most vulnerable. How do you think we in Kansas City are treating the most vulnerable when it comes to equitable access to patient-centered approaches? What kind of a great city are we? What's the quality of this city to you?
Dr. Curran: To be honest, I've been very impressed by Kansas City in a number of ways since coming here in 2016. I've lived all across the US and, of course, I come from Scotland originally. One of the things that impressed me in Kansas City is that we have some very wealthy business people who choose to give back to society. The philanthropic support of Kansas City is really quite high up there. Do we have challenges? Oh yeah, we sure do. We have fantastic historical challenges if you look at underserved populations. I think the history of Kansas City is really interesting, and unless you understand that history, it's sometimes hard. What is 18th and Vine? Well, you know, it was set up that way, a very long, long time ago. Why do we have so many distilleries and bars? Well, you know, this was a mafia led town during Prohibition. Those things all add color to the environment. But I do feel that intrinsic sense from some of our leaders that you pay back, you give back to the society from which you emerged. I come from a very poor working class village in Scotland. Maybe only 1,000 people in that village. I spent my whole youth escaping, trying to get away. So my sense of payback is to others who come from impoverished environments. Everybody deserves a chance. Everybody deserves a fair break. I think that attitude is relatively prevalent in Kansas City. We have to, as you said, translate it into actions and that's where there's more work to be done.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, it's difficult in any company or in any organization and in our own lives to really do that difficult translation work, taking that unvarnished approach to who we really are, to what our company really is, what our company culture is, what the nonprofit's aim really is, where our funding is coming from, and how do those things line up with the with the ultimate good. But it's difficult to translate those good intentions into action in all of those areas of life. As we wrap up our time together, I'd really love to hear you talk about this idea of children first because you guys have done some amazing genomic research. You've really done some groundbreaking work in pediatric pharmaceuticals, which I have to admit, I know almost nothing about, so you're gonna have to speak like a layman to me. Talk to me about why it is important to put children first. What's the role of Children's Mercy regionally, or even nationally, in leadership in that field?
Dr. Curran: So, at Children's Mercy, we talk about our true north. Our true north is the child, each individual child. Take them one at a time and give them the very best medicine and the very best support that science and technology has to offer. Now, historically, that wasn't always the case. Children are considered a vulnerable population. There were actual concerns in the pharmaceutical industry that if you give experimental drugs to children, you might cause side effects that would not be good for them. So they tended to put childhood testing of drugs last or they develop drugs for an adult disease and thought, well, let's just give the same dose or a lower dose to a child, and then they'll be fine. But children's diseases are very different from adult diseases. Children are not little adults, they're growing, they're changing. Every few months, they change dramatically, their biochemistry changes. And drug treatments don't work the same way in children. So we have to specifically develop interventions and treatments for children. To get children to the front of the line, we at Children's Mercy decided, let's develop the very latest science and technology particularly in the field of genomic medicine and precision therapeutics specifically for children, putting them at the front of the queue. Now, very interestingly, that's turned out to be a really good decision in the scientific world. When you study genomics in children, you're looking at individuals before they've been impacted by a lifetime of insults. So in a sense, the data is cleaner. We know there are maybe about 8,000 rare genetic diseases in the world. Well, 7,000 of them start in children. So children are like the first site where you see evidence of gene mutations causing issues. And coming back to that mother, the mother that says, “something's not right” is often correct and she spotted a rare genetic problem based on her life living with her children. This one child, “something is not right” and we need to listen to that and then develop an intervention and a treatment specifically that addresses that problem.
Fr. Justin: I really appreciate you bringing out again the mother and listening. I feel like so often in the medical world, in the social services world, and really in all of business, faith, and philanthropy, we can kind of begin to lose sight of our true north and we can lose sight of this simple listening that can be done. Something as complex as a genomic malfunction in a child and, actually, the mother knows. I remember when my first son, who's now 17, was still in the womb, my wife, his mother, with a stethoscope was able to hear a fetal heart arrhythmia in the womb and pick up on it. Why? Because she had that ear of a mother. There's some deep deep wisdom that I am excited to hear about how your team is really peeling that back and being able to connect these things, leadership, genomic research, scientific approach, as well as a human-centered patient-centered approach where you take the family all together. If we lose sight of any one of those things, I think we lose our true north, don't we?
Dr. Curran: Yeah, absolutely. That's really coming back to that original statement: keep your eye on the prize. Keep your eye on that healthy child, that healthy society, that environment where mental health is not a stigma, but it's something to be dealt with and treated appropriately with the right kind of resources.
Fr. Justin: Have you studied in your work at all the effects of trauma on children and on the care of children? Have you done any work around trauma and mental health?
Dr. Curran: Not me personally, but that's actually a big area of research in Children's Mercy. Particularly those. In fact, the science is really coming into play there. The observations are that childhood traumatic experiences can actually change genes. They change the control elements of genes, the epigenetic component, and we actually have investigators now trying to understand the nature of those changes. Are they reversible? Can we use them as a biomarker to come up with prevention strategies that can help those individuals? It's absolutely clear that childhood trauma has long term effects. We can call them psychological, but actually they may have a fundamental presence in the genome. Changes in DNA modifications, DNA methylation, may end up causing long term issues in those individuals
Fr. Justin: These genomic changes that may result from trauma, are those things that can be passed on to other people and to successive generations?
Dr. Curran: They're not passed on in the way a mutation is passed on, but they're passed on through the environment of the womb, of the placenta. Because the next generation needs a healthy environment in the womb to develop appropriately. So there are issues that go from one generation to the next and it can be seen in a couple of different ways. It could be environmental exposures. It could be a stress-associated changes. The signs are at an early stage, but that is something that is really fascinating right now to try to understand. And again, it's like, people tell us that they have these effects. They tell us that they'd never emerged from their childhood and now we're actually seeing evidence of why.
Fr. Justin: In our work at Reconciliation Services, we do a lot of trauma therapy. We do a lot of social service work and a lot of economic community building here on Troost Avenue, which is the racial and economic dividing line historically in our city. One of the things that our Master’s level clinicians tell me all the time is that the same kind of traumas that they're seeing in their current clients, and in the current guests that are coming in, actually, as you unpack a family story, you see those repeated generation after generation. Those things are not just environmental, but there are ways of thinking that lead to retraumatization. What's the connection? Do you think between this generation that's experienced trauma and the next generation that comes, if it's not a one for one genetics? How does the research indicate that that trauma is continued in the next generation?
Dr. Curran: There are multiple ways that can happen. It could be through behavior patterns, parents treat you in a certain way based on their exposure as a child. But, as I said, the changes in genes affect how genes are expressed. Did you make a certain level of a hormone? Did you make a certain level of growth factor? And how does that then affect the next generation of children? Because those children are born in a womb that may have changes in gene expression that don't provide the right kind of nurturing environment. So you go from one generation to the next. How do you break that vicious cycle? How do you step back from those epigenetic marks? We don't know, but that is definitely something that we're looking into right now.
Fr. Justin: So as we wrap up, I appreciate you kind of going far and wide with me, we've talked about everything from translational research, patient-centered approach, that driving mission around equitable access to care and putting children first. You talked a little bit about the philanthropic world in Kansas City. Coming from Scotland and other places in the United States that you've lived in, you're impressed with the civic and the business and the philanthropic world In Kansas City. As we think about ourselves as leaders in whatever field that we're in, what responsibility do we have to support the work of Children's Mercy? If we're going to be good leaders and good members of Kansas City society, what responsibility do we have to support Children's Mercy, your research, and why is it important?
Dr. Curran: So in the Kansas City landscape, Children's Mercy is a jewel in the crown. We have a beautiful city, that renovation of downtown is great, but you have one of the best children's hospitals in the world. That is something to be proud of. Because I think we can say Kansas City values children, values the next generation, and wants them to have the best. We're building a new research institute on Hospital Hill. A spectacular building that features the DNA sequence from our patients. So we proclaim to the world we are working on the issues our patients bring to us. We will attract the best and the brightest from all over that want to come here to Kansas City to help all of our children locally, but also make discoveries that then ripple out across the rest of the world. Discoveries made here in Kansas City will have an impact in Africa, in South America, in Europe. That's the nature of research. We have investigators right now doing studies in various African countries and learning things that turn out to be very relevant in rural Kansas because the situations are not as dissimilar as you might think. So by valuing Children's Mercy, by polishing this jewel in the crown, Kansas City is stepping up to the next level, as an environment, as a city, as a leader, in the global landscape. I'm very proud of Kansas City
Fr. Justin: Dr. Tom Curran, I really appreciate how well you've represented Children's Mercy, the incredible work that you're doing in genomics, and the work that you've brought into Kansas City with regard to bringing equitable access to all of our kids. I know that two of my kids have been treated by Children's Mercy over the course of their lifetime. And it's absolutely, as you said, a crown in the jewel of Kansas City filled with great leaders, just like yourself. I'm going to take away, as I think about that true north that you talked about, I'm going to try to remember as a leader to embrace my mistakes, to keep my eye on that long term goal, and particularly right now and this season, to remain persistent. Is there anything else that you want to leave us with before we sign off for today, Dr. Curran?
Dr. Curran: I think you summed it up very well.
Fr. Justin:. Well, Dr. Curran, thank you so much for the great work that you do. I sure hope you'll come down to Reconciliation Services and continue to support the work that we do here. If there's anything that we can do, particularly for the vulnerable population in Kansas City, if there's anything we can do to support your work or partner in research, we're excited to do that at Reconciliation Services. So thanks again for joining me today. And thank you all for joining this wonderful conversation on The Social Leader podcast. Remember we're sponsored by Reconciliation Services, working to cultivate a community that's turning Troost Avenue from a dividing line into a gathering place. Next show I'll be visiting with Megan Hyatt Miller of Michael Hyatt & Company. We're going to be talking about productivity and leadership during this season of COVID-19 and sheltering in place. You definitely won't want to miss that show. Thanks again and I look forward to seeing you back on The Social Leader.
In this episode, Fr. Justin Mathews talks with former Kansas City, Missouri, Mayor Sly James, co-founder of Wickham James Strategies and Solutions. Mayor Sly talks about the importance of mental toughness and recognizing how a good leader responds when their back is against the wall.
EPISODE 2 - TRANSCRIPT
Fr. Justin Mathews: Well, hello my friends! Welcome back to The Social Leader, Episode Two. Today my guest is the former Mayor Sly James. You're not gonna want to miss this interview. Stay tuned.
Welcome, former Mayor Sly James. Welcome to the program, The Social Leader. How are you this morning?
Former Mayor Sly James: Father Justin, I'm doing just fantastic. How about you?
Fr. Justin: I’m doing awesome. It's a pleasure to get to visit with you again. I want to make sure that everybody knows who you are. I think everybody might know who you are. But I mean, since we're going out into “the Googles” I want to make sure that everybody knows. So Sly, you have worn many, many, many hats over the years now, a couple of them people might not know. You were the lead singer in a band. You were a military police officer. Like Perry Mason, you were a successful trial attorney. And then most recently, you oversaw all of Kansas City, MO's Renaissance as our two term mayor. Did I miss anything in that description?
Sly: Yeah, you did. You missed the time that I served as a body double for Denzel Washington.
Fr. Justin: Right. Was that right after the Marines or was that recently?
Sly: Oh, no, it was some time ago when I actually had a body that could serve as a double for anybody. But now I just have a body that's double what a normal body should be.
Fr. Justin: Well, I'm not gonna go there. Although I do remember when you were mayor, you had some kind of fitness challenge that was going on for a little while there. That was good. You inspired me. You inspired us all.
Sly: That was fun.
Fr. Justin: Well, welcome to The Social Leader. This is our second episode. We're going to talk all about venturing the business, faith and philanthropy for social good. We're going to talk a little bit about mental health, diversity and inclusion, equity, and leadership. Mayor James, these are all things.. and if I may, I'm going to call you Sly, and I'm probably going to screw up and call you Mayor James again too..
Sly: It's fine. I answer to anything.
Fr. Justin: Hopefully Mayor Quinton Lucas will forgive me for doing it wrong. We're going to talk all about those topics. I just want to jump in. A lot of people knew you as mayor, and some of them know what you're doing now. But tell us a little bit about where you are now and what you're working on after the glory of being mayor in Kansas City has now faded. What is the future now for you, Sly?
Sly: Well, thanks a lot. Well, first of all, Wickham James Strategies and Solutions is a consulting firm that I established with my former Chief of Staff, Joanie Wickham, a woman who I have a great deal of respect for. She’s a brilliant thinker, specializes in communications and crisis communications. We have that unique situation of the two parts completing the whole, the things that she does well are things that I'm weak at and the things I do well are things that she's weak at. We're actually carbon copies. She's a young, vibrant white female. I'm an old black dude. And putting the two together, we cover a lot of bases. But our main thrust is very simple. We wanted to continue some of the work that we had been doing while in office and we recognized that one thing that we could offer would be some strategic thinking and some strategic communication. So when we work with clients, we try to help figure out the best way to approach their subject and to actually accomplish their goals. We try to do that through strategically thinking through the process and then by communicating that process with others and by promoting what they want to do in a way that actually addresses the things that they're most interested in.
For example, we work with the Women's Foundation on continuing to spread the Women's Appointments Project which started here in Kansas City while we were in office. So we've gone to other cities and talked to them about that and showed them how they can too start a project that allows more women to get involved in politics and boards and commissions and civic activities, whatever the case may be. We have a client called Sound Diplomacy that's based out of London. And what they do is try to help cities and municipalities build their nighttime economies by elevating music and culture, so it's an economic development study and approach. We have a tech client that sells curbside applications, so we want to talk about what that really means in terms of not just the pragmatism of controlling traffic of scooters and bikes and cars and people, but also what it means from an ecological standpoint and from a governmental efficiency standpoint. So we work through those problems and we do those types of things. And by doing that, we kept variety in our life but we stayed on a very focused path of trying to make sure that we are accomplishing things by thinking strategically and being bold.
Fr. Justin: Now your partner now at Wickham James who was your chief of staff when you were mayor, Joanie, I've met her before, an incredible leader and you all are a dynamic duo. I want to make sure that people get active and check out what you’re up to now. I also want to remind everyone that this program is sponsored by Reconciliation Services. You can find out more about our work here in Kansas City to help reveal the strength of the entire community: rich, poor, black, white, east and west, everybody here, so that all ships rise together.
I wanted to ask you a question a little bit about mental health. Look, I gotta be honest with you. I've talked to a lot of people on both sides of the economic spectrum, both people who are gainfully employed still and working at home with kids all around them or are just dealing with the isolation of this sort of quarantine situation. But I've also talked to a lot of people who are here on the streets, people who have just lost their job, people who don't have anywhere to shelter in place, people who are alone. We have a lot of our older adult volunteers who are in the amazing Foster Grandparents Program at Reconciliation Services really struggling with staying balanced, staying joyful. I remember you and I talking one time in your former office and we talked about mental health and you wrote down on a card two words that to you sort of symbolized what you wanted to say. You wrote down mental toughness. I'd love it if you’d tell me a little bit about mental toughness and how you're applying that right now in your own life to stay mentally sane in really uncertain times?
Sly: Well, mental toughness is something that I think is developing an attitude that regardless of how bad things may feel or how tough they are at the moment that you recognize that if you stay on a path and if you plot out a plan and if you execute your plan, you're going to make it through. And the more times you do that, the tougher you get. You just learn and you feel that regardless of what happens to me, I'm going to be alright. I just have to make it through this hour, this minute, this day, and then we'll take on the next day or the next hour as it comes. And that's something that I learned growing up and certainly in the Marine Corps where they push you beyond where you thought you could go and then all of a sudden you realize you really could get there if you just tried. And the more times that happened, the further and further you could be pushed and you didn't break.
You know, that's a little different I think than mental health. I think it helps me from a health standpoint. But one of the other things that I found too and I think this is kind of a very benign way of describing it, when our son, Kyle, was playing competitive baseball as he was growing up through the early teens and those things that boys do that really test you as they're growing up. And you sit back as a parent sometimes you say, “Man, you know, this is weird. Why is this happening? This kid is different.” And you think that you're the only ones going through it, that you're the only one seeing, the only ones feeling, then you go sit down with a bunch of other parents at a weekend long baseball tournament out of town and you're talking about kids, and you find out everybody's got exactly the same type of problem with a different thing. Now all of a sudden you know that you're not the only ones and that gives you a level of comfort. I think sometimes we get into our own heads too much. And of course, that's totally different than when you have real chemical imbalances or psychological maladies that need to be addressed. But part of mental toughness is recognizing that just because I can do something doesn't mean everybody else can. And we have to fight through those questions and doubts and push ourselves beyond those limits of trying to be empathetic and constructive when we're dealing with people who have real problems. We tend to never want to identify with people who have problems. We don't want to be seen as poor. We don't want to be seen as having mental illness or issues. And therefore we tend to ignore it or deny their existence, or we tend to treat it poorly. So one way or the other mental toughness means being able to deal with the realities and push beyond the expected limits and get things done and get ready for the next challenge. And as a society, we simply haven't done that with mental illness and those types of things. And I think those are things that are absolutely essential if we're going to progress and move forward.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I mean, I think you've hit on a lot of important topics, but there are many people, both rich and poor, in Kansas City, around the region, and really around the world now in this pandemic, who would agree with what you're saying, but don't know where to begin. I mean, mental toughness as a concept means a lot and it might inspire certain people, but in your own life what are the practical strategies or practical steps, even if they’re simple things that you're doing while you're quarantining, to sort of maintain that mental health and that mental toughness during this time?
Sly: Well, one thing that I think is that you can talk to yourself in or out of anything. If you wake up in the morning, and you're not quite 100%, you can take that not being quite 100% and turn that into a really bad day, just by how you think about it. You know, you wake up grouchy, you start grouchy, you start doing grouchy things, and now at the end of the day, you’ve just been a real pain to be around. Or you can wake up and say, hey, let's do something productive, let’s get something done, and be optimistic, and then you're not that type of a person. So I think the first thing that we all have to do is recognize that we are in control of how we think about things. We can talk ourselves into being mad, we can talk ourselves into being sad, we can talk ourselves into being a pain in the rear, or we can talk ourselves into doing the exact opposite, but it's all in our own head. It's all in the things that we tell ourselves through the course of the day. So the first thing I think that I tried to do is to find some way to be positive and constructive, as opposed to being negative and destructive. Find something that makes you happy. Find something that makes you feel like you've accomplished something during the course of the day, something positive. And I think that sets you on a course for the rest of the day that makes you either nice to be around or not nice to be around and how if you're nice to be around, people are going to be nice to you. If you're not, people aren't necessarily or they're going to stay away. And now you're just feeding whichever narrative you choose. So every day, try to find something that is positive, constructive, and it leaves you with a sense of accomplishment at the end of the day, rather than wishing at the end of the day that you “had of.” There's no sense of wishing you “had of,” “had of” has come and gone and all you can do is get ready for tomorrow.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you remind me of a book that I really liked that's titled Our Thoughts Determine Our Life, and that idea of what we're thinking about every day determining our actions, a lot of times we get that backwards. We think if “I can only do the right thing, then I'm going to feel the right way on the inside, then I'm going to start thinking the right way.” But actually, as leaders, particularly, but really for all of us, it's our thoughts that begin to determine our lives. I know at Reconciliation Services one of the things that we really try to impart to our neighbors and to our clients who come in for services is this idea of self image and how you think about yourself. All of those narratives that are out there about who you are, are really somebody else's thought. And so developing that idea, revealing your own strength of who you are, is really critical. And I appreciate you bringing that out with regard to mental toughness.
The other thing that you make me think about right now, really relates to the idea of diversity and inclusion and particularly in this time, right now you're hearing all over the news, and hopefully we're raising a national consciousness about this yet again, that there are huge inequities, huge disparities in health and in income. I mean, this was a crisis before we ended up in a pandemic. And it feels like every time we reach whether it's Hurricane Katrina, or this pandemic, we get people coming on and saying, there are these health disparities in the African American community and in the poor community, and these things are highlighted right now. You know, the premise of this show, The Social Leader, is that we've got to begin to shift and actualize our thinking into action once we get the right thinking. So what opportunities, Sly, do you think that this situation presents for us as leaders? Maybe for businesses? What does this situation present to us and what opportunities are there to pivot so that we can solve some of these gaps and deal with these diversity and equity issues that are highlighted right now?
Sly: Wow, that's an interesting question, and let me start by telling you that I learned a lesson when I was younger back when I entered the Marine Corps. Coming from Missouri, Kansas City, like I did, never had been on a plane before, certainly not having done anything like this before. And then landing in a large group of people from around the country that I didn’t know, that were different colors, different beliefs, different regions, different accents, different beliefs, etc. and having to get along with them. And the one thing that I think made all of that possible was a recognition that we were not in competition with each other because we had to act as a cohesive unit. And when we were there during the Vietnam era, it wasn't a matter of not liking somebody because of their religion or their race. It was really a matter of learning to trust somebody because they would cover your back in a firefight and perhaps keep you alive. So when you reduce things down to a much more essential set of characteristics like life, death, survival, all of a sudden all the other differences don't mean anything. And I think right now we're going through the situation where a lot of us are being reduced to that same element of survival, what do we have to do to make sure that we don't get sick, we don't wind up in the hospital, that our family doesn't wind up in bad ways like that as well, and survive. Now all of a sudden, you start looking around and you've seen all the other people who are in the same situation, and you feel a certain kinship with them as opposed to a level of competition. So now we recognize what's always been true. And what's always been true is every one of those inequities that you mentioned have been around for decades, hundreds of years, they have not changed. They've gotten more subtle, but they're not gone. And and now we recognize that because we're talking about issues of life, and health, and major subjects, that there are inequities when you hear the statistics and that the huge majority of outrageous differences in the death rate of African Americans and brown people versus white folks as a result of this virus, then that crystallizes something that's been there a long time. The health equities have been like that a long time. Maternal fetal health in the African American community is much lower than it is in the majority community and it's been like that a long time. So none of this stuff is new. What we're seeing is we have less clutter to stop us from being able to see it.
Now,what are we going to do about it? You know, here's my concern and I try to be positive and optimistic. I don't think we're going to do much about it because I don't think we have the leadership to actually be able to galvanize the country and move it. What I fear will happen is that there will be a vaccine and then people will get back to what things were. And then we'll all wind up back in our same corners with our dukes up ready to fight the same silly fights because our leadership will move on to something that's not important. We've had ample opportunities to cure poverty, to do something about healthcare, to do something about inequities in education and we haven't taken them. We've been through World Wars, we've been through all sorts of conflicts, we've been through other illnesses, it has not changed. And one of the main reasons why it hasn't changed is that we have not developed leadership to make a change. Our leadership is much more interested in pushing an ideology on one side of the line or the other, rather than solving problems. And if you don't recognize this as a problem, you're not going to develop a mechanism to do it. Further, when you have term limits and things like that on the federal level. There's no incentive to take on a challenge that could last for 15-20 years to make a dent in when you've only got eight years to spend. So rather than do that, the first four years you're going to do stuff that's going to be designed to get you elected for the next four years. Those are short term things, they're really not controversial. They usually make people feel good or try to put more money in people's pockets. They don't solve the problems of inequities most of the time. And even if you do make that effort, then when the change of administration comes, they abandon it because you did it and they don't want to be associated with what you did. They want the public to be associated with what they're doing. So until we change our leadership styles and approaches in our politics, I have to tell you, I only see incremental change, like it's constantly going. I think there has to be something that inspires people to put aside all of the nonsense that we're filled with, all of the political idolism that we constantly pay homage to, the Fox versus MSNBC mentality, one way or the other, and if you listen to one, you can't possibly listen to the other, and you can't possibly agree with the other side. All of those things are absolute prescriptions for failure when it comes to addressing the real issues of poverty, racial inequities, gender inequities, educational inequities, etc.
The last thing I'll say about it is, is that if we are truly wanting to do something long term about some of these problems, then we should have been starting when every child was born, frankly, educating the parents of the child before they were born. We should have been working to make sure that we were developing minds at the early stage. When we talk about a child having 85% of their mind developed by the age of three, then we do nothing for most of those kids, especially ones in poverty. The first time that they're touched in terms of serious learning is when they show up at kindergarten at the age of five. And kids born in poverty are 30 million words behind at the age of three. And by the time they reach kindergarten at the age of five, they're already two years behind. Now, how do you build a society where you've got an entire segment of your population that starts off at the age of five, two years behind their peers, with no vehicles, no mechanisms, no real opportunities for them to catch up in a serious way? So I like to look at things as they are and I like to focus people on one very basic thing. If we are serious about wanting to change these inequities, recognize it ain't gonna happen overnight. It may be so subtle in some ways, you won't even see it. But if we're serious about it, the first thing that we'll do is we'll invest in the foundation of our children across the board, so that they have opportunities to overcome these things and to compete on an economic level without fear and to also engage other kids with different ways at an earliest age and learn conflict resolution, learn that there's really no difference between kids. Most kids can play together different races, different sexes, they won't care until the adults start telling them to.
Fr. Justin: I want to push you a little bit to apply what you're talking about, about the systemic change, to the individual. You've moved the needle in Kansas City during your two terms on trying to get pre-K education, your leadership youth academy that you put together, the reading room that you put together, and really a lot of those things and a lot of the consciousness that you raised about those issues, along with a lot of other experts in the region and the nation, I think were some of your greatest legacies. And that chapter is still being written. But here's the thing that I want to really drill into and get your advice on: a lot of people who are middle managers, who are stay at home parents, or who are hiring managers on the frontlines of the construction companies building the air airport or the law firms, those are the folks that really shape culture. Aren't they? The people who are doing the hiring, not the folks only at the top, who are setting the priorities about diversity, equity inclusion in these disparities and addressing them. What can those individuals do? What can we do in our own lives? If you were to name three things, what can we do to make systemic change in our sphere of influence with regard to these disparities around health, inequity, racism and income inequity? If you had three things, and you could teach us what would they be?
Sly: Well, the first would be that you have to include yourself into groups that you're not comfortable with. Whenever I went out to speak, I would find myself speaking to a monochromatic group more times than not. I would ask those folks there to look around, tell me who's not there, and by telling me who when they figure out who's not there, tell me why they're not there, and then tell me what you plan to do about it. I think first of all, we all have to be willing to speak up in those circumstances and point that out because a lot of times I don't think people are doing things maliciously, I think they're doing it unconsciously. Systemic racism does not mean that everybody is sitting around plotting danger and stuff for people who are not like them. Systemic racism means that some of these things have become so embedded in our ordinary day-in life, we don't even know that it's racist. So first of all, you have to point it out to somebody. We should never allow a situation where things like that are existing to go unchallenged. Bringing it up, letting somebody know, sometimes it's hard to do that and uncomfortable, and sometimes you have to be diplomatic, but we should not let that go.
Second, we have to be willing to step out of our comfort zones and go into other places and make ourselves vulnerable and educate people about what's going on. So I've always thought that it's easy for us to think that we've accomplished something when we work in a place and there's a couple of people of the opposite sex, opposite race, or something. And we can say, ”yeah, I know some people like...” as opposed to saying, “yeah, we have dinner together there at our house” or “yeah, our kids play together.” So you've got to work outside of the normal work environment if we're going to make societal change, then we have to make society change, which means we have to work towards ending housing segregation and those types of things.
The last thing I would simply say is, is to educate ourselves. There are plenty of opportunities for us to actually learn about other people. We simply don't always want to get up and do it. There's a lot of history that has been written in this country that simply avoids the major truths of the history of this country. The stories are out there and the reality and the facts are out there. So we have to educate ourselves. So educate, get involved in those other things, and participate in things that are multiracial, but also we have to serve. We must serve on some level, whether in whatever way it's a mentor, volunteer at a school, some sort of service for people other than like us or people who need our help just as we will need somebody else's help. If we do those things and learn and serve, it’s really hard to be stoic about inequities when you see those inequities up close, and maybe even have some of those inequities visited on you, then all of a sudden, you become a missionary to change it. So those are the things that I can think of off the top of my head.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you've given us really three good things. Number one: I love the idea of ask who's not in the room, who is not there, and then be willing to speak up about it because a lot of times I think we sit back and we figure out, you know, this room doesn't look like there are the right people in the room to actually give voice to the real issue that I'm thinking about. But then we don't speak up about it. The second thing you said is step outside of your comfort zone. You used a word in there that I love, this idea of vulnerability. And you talked about changing society is somehow linked to vulnerability. I like to think about it as the vulnerability virtue within leadership. And then the third thing that you said was educate yourself and get involved. Once you're passionate about something, once you know something, do something. So those three things are really practical. And I think we can all take those away. I wrote them down for myself, and I'm gonna put them on that sticky note and say that Sly said I better be asking who's not there and speaking up second, stepping out and being vulnerable, and then educating myself and getting active and I think those are really important. Tell me about a time when you, as a leader, really moved to the place of passion. I believe that great leaders have the passion to lead, not just the ability. I certainly remember one of the first times that I was with you in a room. We were at our very first event for Reconciliation Services. You weren't on the bill, but you were in the room, and I remember you got up and you took that mic and you said, “okay, everybody, we're gonna raise some money now for Reconciliation Services because these are issues that I'm passionate about”. You never shied away from talking about the inequity at the same time that you were talking about the economy, at the same time that you were talking about pre-K education, transportation, and I loved that about you. You were polished, but at the same time you also were willing to speak out and be vulnerable. Tell me about where your passion as a social leader comes from. Where does that come from? Is there a story? Is there a time when you realize that I have a passion for this kind of leadership?
Sly: Well, it's hard to pinpoint. I can tell you that I picked up a lot of what I think are really good habits from my father and my mother. They were very passionate about education. It was huge. They saw education as the way out for black folks who were trying to escape poverty. So they made huge sacrifices for us to do that. I think that my time in the Marine Corps taught me about leadership in a different way. It taught me how we're all tied together, how in the Marine Corps if you're not moving as a unit, then you're not moving. And if you're not moving, then that means that you're in danger. So they really forced us to think and work as a unit, why it is beneficial for us all to A) recognize our roles, B) carry out those roles, and C) understand that if we don't carry out our roles, then the rest of the team is in danger. So I learned about that. And then when I got out of the Marine Corps, I went to College at Rockhurst and I was a little older. I found plenty of opportunities to talk to some of the younger guys that I was with about things and they seem to be fascinated by the fact that I'd done some things that they have not yet done. And that somehow that was interesting to them so that gave me an opportunity. I think that I just come by my desire and passion. Rockhurst University was big at that. They really advocated service. It wasn't like they required you to go out and get service hours, like in high school, but what they talked about was being of service to humanity and to other people. And it stuck with me.
I've always thought that we're all very much connected, and we are only as strong as the weakest. But there was another episode that occurred early on in my tenure, I was elected in 2011. In June of 2011, I was in Baltimore from my first US Conference of Mayors and I ran into a guy, Ralph Smith, there who was with the Grade Level Reading group and Annie E. Casey Foundation and he came up and he started talking to me and other mayors about how important it was for the life of a child to be able to read proficiently at third grade. Because up to third grade you're learning to read, and from third grade on you're reading to learn and if you haven't learned to read well, obviously you're not learning much. And the case he made was so strong and so compelling, that as soon as I got back to Kansas City, we started setting up Turn The Page. I believe very strongly in the future, but I also believe very strongly that we're not doing a very good job preparing our children to face the future. Whereas after World War Two, the United States was number one in post-secondary degrees and certificates, we’ve slipped into the mid 20’s now. We used to be at a much higher level in terms of our learning and our capacity and now we've gotten complacent. We talk a lot about American exceptionalism, but we're really not as exceptional as a lot of times we'd like to think we are. Somehow or another that slipped into the lexicon and it's become a badge of honor. We are finding out over the term of years here that we have the same types of flaws as other people and some of those other folks and nations have done a better job of addressing them than we have. So I have this passion for making sure that, as because I know what it’s like to be discriminated against, I know what it's like to be on the wrong side of the tracks, that we eliminate the tracks and the discrimination. I think that there's a lot of different ways to do that. Mine happens to be through making sure that every child- black, white, yellow, whatever - from every socio-economic group has equal opportunity to all the educational resources that we can muster, so that they can all compete and gain on their own skills, as opposed to what we're currently doing. So I don't know where the passion came from. I'm just really glad that it's here.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, and so are we. We're really thankful for the passion that you've brought to leadership and that you continue to bring. As we begin to kind of wrap up our time, I want to ask you an overarching leadership question, because I think a lot of people listening to you might have a similar passion about education or pre-K or reading or Turn The Page kind of work, but they might not think that they have any influence on that whatsoever. And I think that's because, again, going back to fixing our thinking and going back to the thoughts we have determining our lives, a lot of the way that we think about leadership and strategy was formed in kind of the 1950’s IBM mode of leadership. But I think we have an opportunity now to really re-envision leadership and affect more change if we become social leaders. You're in the business of strategy and leadership now at Wickham James Strategy. So how do you think this crisis, this COVID pandemic, is going to affect the way that we all think about leadership and strategy? Or how should it be changing the way that we think about leadership and strategy?
Sly: Well, I think it’s already changing. And here's one way that I think it's gonna be very interesting to find out and to examine when we come out of this current lockdown type situation is who are the business owners and the leaders who came up with viable programs to help the people that they were responsible for, either in the business or in the organization, whatever it is. Who spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best way to solve this problem for the people that they were responsible for? And I think that's going to show something. It's forcing people to lead on something other than their area of expertise. It's forcing people to look at the social aspects of leadership, not just the business aspects of leadership. That's one thing. The other thing that I think is going to happen here is that those who come out of this whole thing with an idea and a plan for “you know what? we used to do it like that, but now that we've been through this and I've had a chance to think about it, we need to make a pivot and do it like this, and here's why.” And to do that in a way that is going to provide not just business or economic benefit, but social leadership, a social benefit. For example, here’s one thing that I think could help. Think about all the people who lose their jobs, have not been there long enough to invest in their retirement programs, but now don't have those jobs and cannot invest in those retirement programs and have to start all over again, if there's one at all, and then have nothing at the end. So there needs to be a system of portable benefits so that people can build their own wealth. And regardless of where they are, they can take that with them. That would spur more entrepreneurship, that would spur more startup type businesses, because then they wouldn't be tied by golden handcuffs to a company who could offer them benefits. I think there's all sorts of things that can come out of this. But we have to first of all, recognize where we are, what the issues and the problems are. Second, analyze those problems and what they are. And third, we have to actualize a plan to resolve those problems. If we go through those three steps, it will be fine.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I mean, sounds like what you're talking about is that social leaders are people who are trying to reinvent leadership to include not only the ROI, but the SROI, the social return on investment, that they need to be really anticipating the changes that are coming about business, entrepreneurship and leadership. How do we do that? What are the steps to actually become a social leader who anticipates the change and then has the ability to apply that to a greater framework?
Sly: Well, you know, that's really interesting, because I think there's models and matrix out there. There are more and more of what are known as b-corps, benefit corporations, corporations who have now made a conscious decision and effort, and allocate a percentage of what they earned to a social program. They pick their one, but because they're picking it and donating and contributing, not only their money but their people to it, now we have a different kind of activism on the ground level from organizations that you normally wouldn't have There are more and more of those, those matrix, those organizations are out there. Join one. Call one. Read about one. Incorporate their ideas. It's out there, you don't have to reinvent the wheel to do good. You just have to have the desire to do good. And if you want to do good, you can do your research, you can find the answers, and you can create your own plan to do it. It's just that simple. But the first thing is you have to be willing to make the change and have a reason to do it. This whole situation should give us reasons to do it, if we want to recognize those reasons. If we just want to get so wrapped up in how terrible it is, and whoa is me, then you're not going to recognize it, then it's going to go back and you're just going to do the same old stuff. We have to recognize that not only is this a problem, this is an opportunity for us to correct mistakes and if we don't take this opportunity to correct mistakes, then we're not leaders, we're just basically followers. And there's nothing wrong with being a follower, but don't brand yourself or try to brand yourself a leader if you're not. If you're not going to lead, get out of the way and let somebody else do it.
Fr. Justin: Going right back to that idea that you learned from the Marines about keep moving. If you're not moving, you're not going to make it. So thank you so much, Sly, for joining us today. Thank you for the wisdom that you dropped here for us and bringing your experience. Is there anything that you want to leave folks with today? Anything that you didn't get to say that you were hoping to say today?
Sly: Yeah, the only thing that I'll say is that when you think about these types of issues and the circumstances that we're in and what's going on, if you don't understand now the importance of actually picking good leaders and doing the things necessary to ensure good leadership, then you never will. Because right now it's easy to find people who look good on TV and say all the right stuff when things are going well. That's not the test of a leader. The test of a leader is how do they respond when the chips are down and people's backs are up against the wall. Do you want to follow them? If they tell you that if we go this way we can get out of this, are you jumping in behind them? Or are you saying, “wait a minute, I'm not so sure about that?” If that's the case, get somebody else. We need to be more particular about our leaders. And we have to learn that if we want to pick the right people, we can't rely on television commercials and makeup and nice sound bites. We have to do some homework and spadework and we have to demand that they be accountable for what happens.
Fr. Justin: Well, you heard it. Former mayor Sly James laid down the gauntlet on leadership, picking the right leaders, but also becoming that good social leader that we need. So, Sly, thank you so much for the honor of joining me here today. I hope we get to have you back as we come out of this pandemic and we’ll see what you’ve learned and how things have changed and how leadership has changed in your mind as we go through this. Thank you again so much.
Sly: Father, all I can tell you is that I appreciate everything you do and have done. I very much respect the service that you provide to the community, the faithful way that you attend to those who need your attendance, that’s a great thing. I will always be available to you, just let me know.
Fr. Justin: You are the best. Thank you so much. I wanted to remind everyone that this show, The Social Leader, is sponsored by Reconciliation Services. The work that we’re doing to reveal the strength of the community, to transform Troost Avenue and really every dividing line in our country, from a dividing line to a gathering place. If you are particularly interested in learning more about how to become a social leader, learning more about what social leadership is, make sure that you go to TheSocialLeader.org. You can learn about the soon-to-come social leader program that Reconciliation Services is launching. Once again, I want to thank you for joining us, thank our guest, former mayor Sly James, the rock star, the trial attorney, and now the head co-founder of Wickham James. Make sure to check them out as well. That’s it for episode two of The Social Leader. I hope you’ll join us again. My guest will be Dr. Curran from Children’s Mercy Hospital. Thank you again so much.
Fr. Justin Mathews: Well, hello my friends! Welcome back to The Social Leader, Episode Two. Today my guest is the former Mayor Sly James. You're not gonna want to miss this interview. Stay tuned.
Welcome, former Mayor Sly James. Welcome to the program, The Social Leader. How are you this morning?
Former Mayor Sly James: Father Justin, I'm doing just fantastic. How about you?
Fr. Justin: I’m doing awesome. It's a pleasure to get to visit with you again. I want to make sure that everybody knows who you are. I think everybody might know who you are. But I mean, since we're going out into “the Googles” I want to make sure that everybody knows. So Sly, you have worn many, many, many hats over the years now, a couple of them people might not know. You were the lead singer in a band. You were a military police officer. Like Perry Mason, you were a successful trial attorney. And then most recently, you oversaw all of Kansas City, MO's Renaissance as our two term mayor. Did I miss anything in that description?
Sly: Yeah, you did. You missed the time that I served as a body double for Denzel Washington.
Fr. Justin: Right. Was that right after the Marines or was that recently?
Sly: Oh, no, it was some time ago when I actually had a body that could serve as a double for anybody. But now I just have a body that's double what a normal body should be.
Fr. Justin: Well, I'm not gonna go there. Although I do remember when you were mayor, you had some kind of fitness challenge that was going on for a little while there. That was good. You inspired me. You inspired us all.
Sly: That was fun.
Fr. Justin: Well, welcome to The Social Leader. This is our second episode. We're going to talk all about venturing the business, faith and philanthropy for social good. We're going to talk a little bit about mental health, diversity and inclusion, equity, and leadership. Mayor James, these are all things.. and if I may, I'm going to call you Sly, and I'm probably going to screw up and call you Mayor James again too..
Sly: It's fine. I answer to anything.
Fr. Justin: Hopefully Mayor Quinton Lucas will forgive me for doing it wrong. We're going to talk all about those topics. I just want to jump in. A lot of people knew you as mayor, and some of them know what you're doing now. But tell us a little bit about where you are now and what you're working on after the glory of being mayor in Kansas City has now faded. What is the future now for you, Sly?
Sly: Well, thanks a lot. Well, first of all, Wickham James Strategies and Solutions is a consulting firm that I established with my former Chief of Staff, Joanie Wickham, a woman who I have a great deal of respect for. She’s a brilliant thinker, specializes in communications and crisis communications. We have that unique situation of the two parts completing the whole, the things that she does well are things that I'm weak at and the things I do well are things that she's weak at. We're actually carbon copies. She's a young, vibrant white female. I'm an old black dude. And putting the two together, we cover a lot of bases. But our main thrust is very simple. We wanted to continue some of the work that we had been doing while in office and we recognized that one thing that we could offer would be some strategic thinking and some strategic communication. So when we work with clients, we try to help figure out the best way to approach their subject and to actually accomplish their goals. We try to do that through strategically thinking through the process and then by communicating that process with others and by promoting what they want to do in a way that actually addresses the things that they're most interested in.
For example, we work with the Women's Foundation on continuing to spread the Women's Appointments Project which started here in Kansas City while we were in office. So we've gone to other cities and talked to them about that and showed them how they can too start a project that allows more women to get involved in politics and boards and commissions and civic activities, whatever the case may be. We have a client called Sound Diplomacy that's based out of London. And what they do is try to help cities and municipalities build their nighttime economies by elevating music and culture, so it's an economic development study and approach. We have a tech client that sells curbside applications, so we want to talk about what that really means in terms of not just the pragmatism of controlling traffic of scooters and bikes and cars and people, but also what it means from an ecological standpoint and from a governmental efficiency standpoint. So we work through those problems and we do those types of things. And by doing that, we kept variety in our life but we stayed on a very focused path of trying to make sure that we are accomplishing things by thinking strategically and being bold.
Fr. Justin: Now your partner now at Wickham James who was your chief of staff when you were mayor, Joanie, I've met her before, an incredible leader and you all are a dynamic duo. I want to make sure that people get active and check out what you’re up to now. I also want to remind everyone that this program is sponsored by Reconciliation Services. You can find out more about our work here in Kansas City to help reveal the strength of the entire community: rich, poor, black, white, east and west, everybody here, so that all ships rise together.
I wanted to ask you a question a little bit about mental health. Look, I gotta be honest with you. I've talked to a lot of people on both sides of the economic spectrum, both people who are gainfully employed still and working at home with kids all around them or are just dealing with the isolation of this sort of quarantine situation. But I've also talked to a lot of people who are here on the streets, people who have just lost their job, people who don't have anywhere to shelter in place, people who are alone. We have a lot of our older adult volunteers who are in the amazing Foster Grandparents Program at Reconciliation Services really struggling with staying balanced, staying joyful. I remember you and I talking one time in your former office and we talked about mental health and you wrote down on a card two words that to you sort of symbolized what you wanted to say. You wrote down mental toughness. I'd love it if you’d tell me a little bit about mental toughness and how you're applying that right now in your own life to stay mentally sane in really uncertain times?
Sly: Well, mental toughness is something that I think is developing an attitude that regardless of how bad things may feel or how tough they are at the moment that you recognize that if you stay on a path and if you plot out a plan and if you execute your plan, you're going to make it through. And the more times you do that, the tougher you get. You just learn and you feel that regardless of what happens to me, I'm going to be alright. I just have to make it through this hour, this minute, this day, and then we'll take on the next day or the next hour as it comes. And that's something that I learned growing up and certainly in the Marine Corps where they push you beyond where you thought you could go and then all of a sudden you realize you really could get there if you just tried. And the more times that happened, the further and further you could be pushed and you didn't break.
You know, that's a little different I think than mental health. I think it helps me from a health standpoint. But one of the other things that I found too and I think this is kind of a very benign way of describing it, when our son, Kyle, was playing competitive baseball as he was growing up through the early teens and those things that boys do that really test you as they're growing up. And you sit back as a parent sometimes you say, “Man, you know, this is weird. Why is this happening? This kid is different.” And you think that you're the only ones going through it, that you're the only one seeing, the only ones feeling, then you go sit down with a bunch of other parents at a weekend long baseball tournament out of town and you're talking about kids, and you find out everybody's got exactly the same type of problem with a different thing. Now all of a sudden you know that you're not the only ones and that gives you a level of comfort. I think sometimes we get into our own heads too much. And of course, that's totally different than when you have real chemical imbalances or psychological maladies that need to be addressed. But part of mental toughness is recognizing that just because I can do something doesn't mean everybody else can. And we have to fight through those questions and doubts and push ourselves beyond those limits of trying to be empathetic and constructive when we're dealing with people who have real problems. We tend to never want to identify with people who have problems. We don't want to be seen as poor. We don't want to be seen as having mental illness or issues. And therefore we tend to ignore it or deny their existence, or we tend to treat it poorly. So one way or the other mental toughness means being able to deal with the realities and push beyond the expected limits and get things done and get ready for the next challenge. And as a society, we simply haven't done that with mental illness and those types of things. And I think those are things that are absolutely essential if we're going to progress and move forward.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I mean, I think you've hit on a lot of important topics, but there are many people, both rich and poor, in Kansas City, around the region, and really around the world now in this pandemic, who would agree with what you're saying, but don't know where to begin. I mean, mental toughness as a concept means a lot and it might inspire certain people, but in your own life what are the practical strategies or practical steps, even if they’re simple things that you're doing while you're quarantining, to sort of maintain that mental health and that mental toughness during this time?
Sly: Well, one thing that I think is that you can talk to yourself in or out of anything. If you wake up in the morning, and you're not quite 100%, you can take that not being quite 100% and turn that into a really bad day, just by how you think about it. You know, you wake up grouchy, you start grouchy, you start doing grouchy things, and now at the end of the day, you’ve just been a real pain to be around. Or you can wake up and say, hey, let's do something productive, let’s get something done, and be optimistic, and then you're not that type of a person. So I think the first thing that we all have to do is recognize that we are in control of how we think about things. We can talk ourselves into being mad, we can talk ourselves into being sad, we can talk ourselves into being a pain in the rear, or we can talk ourselves into doing the exact opposite, but it's all in our own head. It's all in the things that we tell ourselves through the course of the day. So the first thing I think that I tried to do is to find some way to be positive and constructive, as opposed to being negative and destructive. Find something that makes you happy. Find something that makes you feel like you've accomplished something during the course of the day, something positive. And I think that sets you on a course for the rest of the day that makes you either nice to be around or not nice to be around and how if you're nice to be around, people are going to be nice to you. If you're not, people aren't necessarily or they're going to stay away. And now you're just feeding whichever narrative you choose. So every day, try to find something that is positive, constructive, and it leaves you with a sense of accomplishment at the end of the day, rather than wishing at the end of the day that you “had of.” There's no sense of wishing you “had of,” “had of” has come and gone and all you can do is get ready for tomorrow.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you remind me of a book that I really liked that's titled Our Thoughts Determine Our Life, and that idea of what we're thinking about every day determining our actions, a lot of times we get that backwards. We think if “I can only do the right thing, then I'm going to feel the right way on the inside, then I'm going to start thinking the right way.” But actually, as leaders, particularly, but really for all of us, it's our thoughts that begin to determine our lives. I know at Reconciliation Services one of the things that we really try to impart to our neighbors and to our clients who come in for services is this idea of self image and how you think about yourself. All of those narratives that are out there about who you are, are really somebody else's thought. And so developing that idea, revealing your own strength of who you are, is really critical. And I appreciate you bringing that out with regard to mental toughness.
The other thing that you make me think about right now, really relates to the idea of diversity and inclusion and particularly in this time, right now you're hearing all over the news, and hopefully we're raising a national consciousness about this yet again, that there are huge inequities, huge disparities in health and in income. I mean, this was a crisis before we ended up in a pandemic. And it feels like every time we reach whether it's Hurricane Katrina, or this pandemic, we get people coming on and saying, there are these health disparities in the African American community and in the poor community, and these things are highlighted right now. You know, the premise of this show, The Social Leader, is that we've got to begin to shift and actualize our thinking into action once we get the right thinking. So what opportunities, Sly, do you think that this situation presents for us as leaders? Maybe for businesses? What does this situation present to us and what opportunities are there to pivot so that we can solve some of these gaps and deal with these diversity and equity issues that are highlighted right now?
Sly: Wow, that's an interesting question, and let me start by telling you that I learned a lesson when I was younger back when I entered the Marine Corps. Coming from Missouri, Kansas City, like I did, never had been on a plane before, certainly not having done anything like this before. And then landing in a large group of people from around the country that I didn’t know, that were different colors, different beliefs, different regions, different accents, different beliefs, etc. and having to get along with them. And the one thing that I think made all of that possible was a recognition that we were not in competition with each other because we had to act as a cohesive unit. And when we were there during the Vietnam era, it wasn't a matter of not liking somebody because of their religion or their race. It was really a matter of learning to trust somebody because they would cover your back in a firefight and perhaps keep you alive. So when you reduce things down to a much more essential set of characteristics like life, death, survival, all of a sudden all the other differences don't mean anything. And I think right now we're going through the situation where a lot of us are being reduced to that same element of survival, what do we have to do to make sure that we don't get sick, we don't wind up in the hospital, that our family doesn't wind up in bad ways like that as well, and survive. Now all of a sudden, you start looking around and you've seen all the other people who are in the same situation, and you feel a certain kinship with them as opposed to a level of competition. So now we recognize what's always been true. And what's always been true is every one of those inequities that you mentioned have been around for decades, hundreds of years, they have not changed. They've gotten more subtle, but they're not gone. And and now we recognize that because we're talking about issues of life, and health, and major subjects, that there are inequities when you hear the statistics and that the huge majority of outrageous differences in the death rate of African Americans and brown people versus white folks as a result of this virus, then that crystallizes something that's been there a long time. The health equities have been like that a long time. Maternal fetal health in the African American community is much lower than it is in the majority community and it's been like that a long time. So none of this stuff is new. What we're seeing is we have less clutter to stop us from being able to see it.
Now,what are we going to do about it? You know, here's my concern and I try to be positive and optimistic. I don't think we're going to do much about it because I don't think we have the leadership to actually be able to galvanize the country and move it. What I fear will happen is that there will be a vaccine and then people will get back to what things were. And then we'll all wind up back in our same corners with our dukes up ready to fight the same silly fights because our leadership will move on to something that's not important. We've had ample opportunities to cure poverty, to do something about healthcare, to do something about inequities in education and we haven't taken them. We've been through World Wars, we've been through all sorts of conflicts, we've been through other illnesses, it has not changed. And one of the main reasons why it hasn't changed is that we have not developed leadership to make a change. Our leadership is much more interested in pushing an ideology on one side of the line or the other, rather than solving problems. And if you don't recognize this as a problem, you're not going to develop a mechanism to do it. Further, when you have term limits and things like that on the federal level. There's no incentive to take on a challenge that could last for 15-20 years to make a dent in when you've only got eight years to spend. So rather than do that, the first four years you're going to do stuff that's going to be designed to get you elected for the next four years. Those are short term things, they're really not controversial. They usually make people feel good or try to put more money in people's pockets. They don't solve the problems of inequities most of the time. And even if you do make that effort, then when the change of administration comes, they abandon it because you did it and they don't want to be associated with what you did. They want the public to be associated with what they're doing. So until we change our leadership styles and approaches in our politics, I have to tell you, I only see incremental change, like it's constantly going. I think there has to be something that inspires people to put aside all of the nonsense that we're filled with, all of the political idolism that we constantly pay homage to, the Fox versus MSNBC mentality, one way or the other, and if you listen to one, you can't possibly listen to the other, and you can't possibly agree with the other side. All of those things are absolute prescriptions for failure when it comes to addressing the real issues of poverty, racial inequities, gender inequities, educational inequities, etc.
The last thing I'll say about it is, is that if we are truly wanting to do something long term about some of these problems, then we should have been starting when every child was born, frankly, educating the parents of the child before they were born. We should have been working to make sure that we were developing minds at the early stage. When we talk about a child having 85% of their mind developed by the age of three, then we do nothing for most of those kids, especially ones in poverty. The first time that they're touched in terms of serious learning is when they show up at kindergarten at the age of five. And kids born in poverty are 30 million words behind at the age of three. And by the time they reach kindergarten at the age of five, they're already two years behind. Now, how do you build a society where you've got an entire segment of your population that starts off at the age of five, two years behind their peers, with no vehicles, no mechanisms, no real opportunities for them to catch up in a serious way? So I like to look at things as they are and I like to focus people on one very basic thing. If we are serious about wanting to change these inequities, recognize it ain't gonna happen overnight. It may be so subtle in some ways, you won't even see it. But if we're serious about it, the first thing that we'll do is we'll invest in the foundation of our children across the board, so that they have opportunities to overcome these things and to compete on an economic level without fear and to also engage other kids with different ways at an earliest age and learn conflict resolution, learn that there's really no difference between kids. Most kids can play together different races, different sexes, they won't care until the adults start telling them to.
Fr. Justin: I want to push you a little bit to apply what you're talking about, about the systemic change, to the individual. You've moved the needle in Kansas City during your two terms on trying to get pre-K education, your leadership youth academy that you put together, the reading room that you put together, and really a lot of those things and a lot of the consciousness that you raised about those issues, along with a lot of other experts in the region and the nation, I think were some of your greatest legacies. And that chapter is still being written. But here's the thing that I want to really drill into and get your advice on: a lot of people who are middle managers, who are stay at home parents, or who are hiring managers on the frontlines of the construction companies building the air airport or the law firms, those are the folks that really shape culture. Aren't they? The people who are doing the hiring, not the folks only at the top, who are setting the priorities about diversity, equity inclusion in these disparities and addressing them. What can those individuals do? What can we do in our own lives? If you were to name three things, what can we do to make systemic change in our sphere of influence with regard to these disparities around health, inequity, racism and income inequity? If you had three things, and you could teach us what would they be?
Sly: Well, the first would be that you have to include yourself into groups that you're not comfortable with. Whenever I went out to speak, I would find myself speaking to a monochromatic group more times than not. I would ask those folks there to look around, tell me who's not there, and by telling me who when they figure out who's not there, tell me why they're not there, and then tell me what you plan to do about it. I think first of all, we all have to be willing to speak up in those circumstances and point that out because a lot of times I don't think people are doing things maliciously, I think they're doing it unconsciously. Systemic racism does not mean that everybody is sitting around plotting danger and stuff for people who are not like them. Systemic racism means that some of these things have become so embedded in our ordinary day-in life, we don't even know that it's racist. So first of all, you have to point it out to somebody. We should never allow a situation where things like that are existing to go unchallenged. Bringing it up, letting somebody know, sometimes it's hard to do that and uncomfortable, and sometimes you have to be diplomatic, but we should not let that go.
Second, we have to be willing to step out of our comfort zones and go into other places and make ourselves vulnerable and educate people about what's going on. So I've always thought that it's easy for us to think that we've accomplished something when we work in a place and there's a couple of people of the opposite sex, opposite race, or something. And we can say, ”yeah, I know some people like...” as opposed to saying, “yeah, we have dinner together there at our house” or “yeah, our kids play together.” So you've got to work outside of the normal work environment if we're going to make societal change, then we have to make society change, which means we have to work towards ending housing segregation and those types of things.
The last thing I would simply say is, is to educate ourselves. There are plenty of opportunities for us to actually learn about other people. We simply don't always want to get up and do it. There's a lot of history that has been written in this country that simply avoids the major truths of the history of this country. The stories are out there and the reality and the facts are out there. So we have to educate ourselves. So educate, get involved in those other things, and participate in things that are multiracial, but also we have to serve. We must serve on some level, whether in whatever way it's a mentor, volunteer at a school, some sort of service for people other than like us or people who need our help just as we will need somebody else's help. If we do those things and learn and serve, it’s really hard to be stoic about inequities when you see those inequities up close, and maybe even have some of those inequities visited on you, then all of a sudden, you become a missionary to change it. So those are the things that I can think of off the top of my head.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you've given us really three good things. Number one: I love the idea of ask who's not in the room, who is not there, and then be willing to speak up about it because a lot of times I think we sit back and we figure out, you know, this room doesn't look like there are the right people in the room to actually give voice to the real issue that I'm thinking about. But then we don't speak up about it. The second thing you said is step outside of your comfort zone. You used a word in there that I love, this idea of vulnerability. And you talked about changing society is somehow linked to vulnerability. I like to think about it as the vulnerability virtue within leadership. And then the third thing that you said was educate yourself and get involved. Once you're passionate about something, once you know something, do something. So those three things are really practical. And I think we can all take those away. I wrote them down for myself, and I'm gonna put them on that sticky note and say that Sly said I better be asking who's not there and speaking up second, stepping out and being vulnerable, and then educating myself and getting active and I think those are really important. Tell me about a time when you, as a leader, really moved to the place of passion. I believe that great leaders have the passion to lead, not just the ability. I certainly remember one of the first times that I was with you in a room. We were at our very first event for Reconciliation Services. You weren't on the bill, but you were in the room, and I remember you got up and you took that mic and you said, “okay, everybody, we're gonna raise some money now for Reconciliation Services because these are issues that I'm passionate about”. You never shied away from talking about the inequity at the same time that you were talking about the economy, at the same time that you were talking about pre-K education, transportation, and I loved that about you. You were polished, but at the same time you also were willing to speak out and be vulnerable. Tell me about where your passion as a social leader comes from. Where does that come from? Is there a story? Is there a time when you realize that I have a passion for this kind of leadership?
Sly: Well, it's hard to pinpoint. I can tell you that I picked up a lot of what I think are really good habits from my father and my mother. They were very passionate about education. It was huge. They saw education as the way out for black folks who were trying to escape poverty. So they made huge sacrifices for us to do that. I think that my time in the Marine Corps taught me about leadership in a different way. It taught me how we're all tied together, how in the Marine Corps if you're not moving as a unit, then you're not moving. And if you're not moving, then that means that you're in danger. So they really forced us to think and work as a unit, why it is beneficial for us all to A) recognize our roles, B) carry out those roles, and C) understand that if we don't carry out our roles, then the rest of the team is in danger. So I learned about that. And then when I got out of the Marine Corps, I went to College at Rockhurst and I was a little older. I found plenty of opportunities to talk to some of the younger guys that I was with about things and they seem to be fascinated by the fact that I'd done some things that they have not yet done. And that somehow that was interesting to them so that gave me an opportunity. I think that I just come by my desire and passion. Rockhurst University was big at that. They really advocated service. It wasn't like they required you to go out and get service hours, like in high school, but what they talked about was being of service to humanity and to other people. And it stuck with me.
I've always thought that we're all very much connected, and we are only as strong as the weakest. But there was another episode that occurred early on in my tenure, I was elected in 2011. In June of 2011, I was in Baltimore from my first US Conference of Mayors and I ran into a guy, Ralph Smith, there who was with the Grade Level Reading group and Annie E. Casey Foundation and he came up and he started talking to me and other mayors about how important it was for the life of a child to be able to read proficiently at third grade. Because up to third grade you're learning to read, and from third grade on you're reading to learn and if you haven't learned to read well, obviously you're not learning much. And the case he made was so strong and so compelling, that as soon as I got back to Kansas City, we started setting up Turn The Page. I believe very strongly in the future, but I also believe very strongly that we're not doing a very good job preparing our children to face the future. Whereas after World War Two, the United States was number one in post-secondary degrees and certificates, we’ve slipped into the mid 20’s now. We used to be at a much higher level in terms of our learning and our capacity and now we've gotten complacent. We talk a lot about American exceptionalism, but we're really not as exceptional as a lot of times we'd like to think we are. Somehow or another that slipped into the lexicon and it's become a badge of honor. We are finding out over the term of years here that we have the same types of flaws as other people and some of those other folks and nations have done a better job of addressing them than we have. So I have this passion for making sure that, as because I know what it’s like to be discriminated against, I know what it's like to be on the wrong side of the tracks, that we eliminate the tracks and the discrimination. I think that there's a lot of different ways to do that. Mine happens to be through making sure that every child- black, white, yellow, whatever - from every socio-economic group has equal opportunity to all the educational resources that we can muster, so that they can all compete and gain on their own skills, as opposed to what we're currently doing. So I don't know where the passion came from. I'm just really glad that it's here.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, and so are we. We're really thankful for the passion that you've brought to leadership and that you continue to bring. As we begin to kind of wrap up our time, I want to ask you an overarching leadership question, because I think a lot of people listening to you might have a similar passion about education or pre-K or reading or Turn The Page kind of work, but they might not think that they have any influence on that whatsoever. And I think that's because, again, going back to fixing our thinking and going back to the thoughts we have determining our lives, a lot of the way that we think about leadership and strategy was formed in kind of the 1950’s IBM mode of leadership. But I think we have an opportunity now to really re-envision leadership and affect more change if we become social leaders. You're in the business of strategy and leadership now at Wickham James Strategy. So how do you think this crisis, this COVID pandemic, is going to affect the way that we all think about leadership and strategy? Or how should it be changing the way that we think about leadership and strategy?
Sly: Well, I think it’s already changing. And here's one way that I think it's gonna be very interesting to find out and to examine when we come out of this current lockdown type situation is who are the business owners and the leaders who came up with viable programs to help the people that they were responsible for, either in the business or in the organization, whatever it is. Who spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best way to solve this problem for the people that they were responsible for? And I think that's going to show something. It's forcing people to lead on something other than their area of expertise. It's forcing people to look at the social aspects of leadership, not just the business aspects of leadership. That's one thing. The other thing that I think is going to happen here is that those who come out of this whole thing with an idea and a plan for “you know what? we used to do it like that, but now that we've been through this and I've had a chance to think about it, we need to make a pivot and do it like this, and here's why.” And to do that in a way that is going to provide not just business or economic benefit, but social leadership, a social benefit. For example, here’s one thing that I think could help. Think about all the people who lose their jobs, have not been there long enough to invest in their retirement programs, but now don't have those jobs and cannot invest in those retirement programs and have to start all over again, if there's one at all, and then have nothing at the end. So there needs to be a system of portable benefits so that people can build their own wealth. And regardless of where they are, they can take that with them. That would spur more entrepreneurship, that would spur more startup type businesses, because then they wouldn't be tied by golden handcuffs to a company who could offer them benefits. I think there's all sorts of things that can come out of this. But we have to first of all, recognize where we are, what the issues and the problems are. Second, analyze those problems and what they are. And third, we have to actualize a plan to resolve those problems. If we go through those three steps, it will be fine.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I mean, sounds like what you're talking about is that social leaders are people who are trying to reinvent leadership to include not only the ROI, but the SROI, the social return on investment, that they need to be really anticipating the changes that are coming about business, entrepreneurship and leadership. How do we do that? What are the steps to actually become a social leader who anticipates the change and then has the ability to apply that to a greater framework?
Sly: Well, you know, that's really interesting, because I think there's models and matrix out there. There are more and more of what are known as b-corps, benefit corporations, corporations who have now made a conscious decision and effort, and allocate a percentage of what they earned to a social program. They pick their one, but because they're picking it and donating and contributing, not only their money but their people to it, now we have a different kind of activism on the ground level from organizations that you normally wouldn't have There are more and more of those, those matrix, those organizations are out there. Join one. Call one. Read about one. Incorporate their ideas. It's out there, you don't have to reinvent the wheel to do good. You just have to have the desire to do good. And if you want to do good, you can do your research, you can find the answers, and you can create your own plan to do it. It's just that simple. But the first thing is you have to be willing to make the change and have a reason to do it. This whole situation should give us reasons to do it, if we want to recognize those reasons. If we just want to get so wrapped up in how terrible it is, and whoa is me, then you're not going to recognize it, then it's going to go back and you're just going to do the same old stuff. We have to recognize that not only is this a problem, this is an opportunity for us to correct mistakes and if we don't take this opportunity to correct mistakes, then we're not leaders, we're just basically followers. And there's nothing wrong with being a follower, but don't brand yourself or try to brand yourself a leader if you're not. If you're not going to lead, get out of the way and let somebody else do it.
Fr. Justin: Going right back to that idea that you learned from the Marines about keep moving. If you're not moving, you're not going to make it. So thank you so much, Sly, for joining us today. Thank you for the wisdom that you dropped here for us and bringing your experience. Is there anything that you want to leave folks with today? Anything that you didn't get to say that you were hoping to say today?
Sly: Yeah, the only thing that I'll say is that when you think about these types of issues and the circumstances that we're in and what's going on, if you don't understand now the importance of actually picking good leaders and doing the things necessary to ensure good leadership, then you never will. Because right now it's easy to find people who look good on TV and say all the right stuff when things are going well. That's not the test of a leader. The test of a leader is how do they respond when the chips are down and people's backs are up against the wall. Do you want to follow them? If they tell you that if we go this way we can get out of this, are you jumping in behind them? Or are you saying, “wait a minute, I'm not so sure about that?” If that's the case, get somebody else. We need to be more particular about our leaders. And we have to learn that if we want to pick the right people, we can't rely on television commercials and makeup and nice sound bites. We have to do some homework and spadework and we have to demand that they be accountable for what happens.
Fr. Justin: Well, you heard it. Former mayor Sly James laid down the gauntlet on leadership, picking the right leaders, but also becoming that good social leader that we need. So, Sly, thank you so much for the honor of joining me here today. I hope we get to have you back as we come out of this pandemic and we’ll see what you’ve learned and how things have changed and how leadership has changed in your mind as we go through this. Thank you again so much.
Sly: Father, all I can tell you is that I appreciate everything you do and have done. I very much respect the service that you provide to the community, the faithful way that you attend to those who need your attendance, that’s a great thing. I will always be available to you, just let me know.
Fr. Justin: You are the best. Thank you so much. I wanted to remind everyone that this show, The Social Leader, is sponsored by Reconciliation Services. The work that we’re doing to reveal the strength of the community, to transform Troost Avenue and really every dividing line in our country, from a dividing line to a gathering place. If you are particularly interested in learning more about how to become a social leader, learning more about what social leadership is, make sure that you go to TheSocialLeader.org. You can learn about the soon-to-come social leader program that Reconciliation Services is launching. Once again, I want to thank you for joining us, thank our guest, former mayor Sly James, the rock star, the trial attorney, and now the head co-founder of Wickham James. Make sure to check them out as well. That’s it for episode two of The Social Leader. I hope you’ll join us again. My guest will be Dr. Curran from Children’s Mercy Hospital. Thank you again so much.
In this episode of The Social Leader, Fr. Justin Mathews interviews Steve Gardner, co-owner of SEJ Services, a medical supply company. Steve shares about how he learned the importance of empathy in leadership when he was forced to face the pain and uncertainty of having a son with severe health problems. Leading his family taught him some valuable lessons about leading at work.
Episode 1 - TRANSCRIPT
Fr. Justin Mathews: Good afternoon, everybody. I'm Father Justin Mathews with Reconciliation Services. Welcome to the inaugural broadcast of The Social Leader. I am here today with a special guest. His name is Steve Gardner. I'm going to bring Steve on right now. Hello, Steve.
Steve Gardner: Well, good morning Fr. Justin.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, thank you. Welcome to the very first episode of The Social Leader. Do you feel special because you're the first?
Steve: I'm honored to be a guinea pig.
Fr. Justin: I'm really glad that you're here. Steve is not only a good friend and a volunteer at Reconciliation Services, but he is also the co-founder of a brand new company called SEJ Services. We're going to get into a little bit about what SEJ Services is in a few minutes. Well today, in this inaugural episode, we're going to be talking on The Social Leader about the best of business, faith, and philanthropy, which I call social venturing. We're going to be talking about social leadership and trying to get into what leadership looks like when social impact and social venturing is in the mix. And, I brought Steve on because he has a depth of experience as an entrepreneur, is just a fantastic friend, and a regular volunteer here at Thelma’s Kitchen and Reconciliation Services. So Steve, let's just begin by giving people a little bit of information about who you are and what you do and where you hail from here in Kansas City.
Steve: Yeah, thank you Fr. Justin. I'm Kansas City born and bred. I’ve been here almost my entire life. It would be 47 of my 50 years. I lived in Phoenix for a few years, but went to KU, Shawnee Mission South High School ... Shout out to the Raiders. I’m married with four kids, you'll hear a couple of things about my kids a little bit later, but I've also got a consulting company that I've been doing for a while. But SEJ Services is something that popped up as a direct result of COVID-19. We pulled together a group of local entrepreneurs to put together a company that is going to be able to deliver PPE [personal protective equipment] in very significant numbers to hospital chains and communities around the country and we're very committed to very low margins, extremely low margins, and also donating 10% of our proceeds to under-served communities that are in desperate need these days.
Fr. Justin: I'm excited to talk to you about that a little bit. Let's jump into why low margins are important to you. I mean, there are a lot of people who are bringing personal protective equipment into the United States right now. And actually, I've heard horror stories even here in Kansas City. I was talking with some folks at the health department and others, that they've been approached by companies that are selling PPE for the hospitals and are trying to compete with others coming in, but when they got the PPE or when they got under contract, things tripled in price all of a sudden and there wasn't a lot of quality. Certainly, I haven't heard of any company that's talking about donating PPE to low income communities. And of course, when we got connected I was particularly interested in that because I have my one mask that I've been using and recycling. But you know, Reconciliation Services and Thelma’s Kitchen .. We're here on the front lines at 31st and Troost. Which, if you're watching from out of town that is the economic and racial dividing line in Kansas City. It's synonymous with that divide. And there are many, many people in Kansas City who really are struggling to survive and succeed. But the reality is also, as you know, Steve, that there are a lot of people in the homeless population in low income populations that don't have the same access to hand sanitizers and even to basic hygiene. So to be frank, this is really important for my 22 staff that are on the front lines. We're still serving as an essential service. So why did you all decide to donate PPE for every sale and why did you get into the PPE business right now?
Steve: Well, so there’s a couple of reasons for that Fr. Justin. First of all, I started seeing some of the same kinds of stories that you're talking about where communities and hospitals and the people who really need the PPE they're really struggling to source it. And for the most part, it's not been available in warehouses in the US. And so now a lot of these groups, in some cases for the first time, are having to figure out how to source things from China. And while I personally don't have a lot of experience with that, our team has extensive experience with it, including one gentleman who actually ran manufacturing for Hallmark throughout Asia and China for about 10 years. And so, we've got a lot of experience working over there and we know how to get things into the US and do some good things with it. For us, the low margin is not an overly complicated thing. This is not about opportunism. This is about the fact that we have a very real need in our communities and in our nation and people are not getting the PPE that they need. And our health care workers are literally on the front lines of dealing with these kinds of things. They should not be getting gouged and hit hardest over things that are absolutely critically important. So it was really important to us that we maintain very low margins. And at the same time, we also very much recognize and in large part due to some of the volunteering that I've been doing down at Thelma’s and really understanding the work of RS and similar organizations in other parts of the country. The people that are being hit the hardest right now are those that are in economically disadvantaged areas and they really, really need the extra help. And they can't just run down to the store and go pick up the stuff.
Fr. Justin: I'm very excited about the work that you're doing with SEJ. As I understand it, with every order that people make, as PPE is available, you're going to be donating to RS. And through RS, we're actually going to be able to distribute that into low income communities. And, certainly use it here in Kansas City as well. Let's talk a little bit about your volunteering. Even yesterday, Steve, you were in here. I think you're sporting a Thelma’s Kitchen t-shirt right now. Thank you! Why don't you describe in your own words what Thelma’s Kitchen is and then what you've been doing since the whole world kind of went on lock-down and all the restaurants closed in Kansas City.
Steve: Thelma’s Kitchen is the first donate-what-you-can cafe in Kansas City, where guests come in and either donate the suggested price, or more or less, or donate 30 minutes of volunteer time in exchange for lunch. About 70% of the guests are food insecure. Folks can bus some tables, do some dishes, and do some other things that just help the restaurant run. To me, one of the most remarkable things about Thelma’s Kitchen is that there's really only two full-time employees that run and operate the restaurant. The amount of volunteer work is remarkable and seeing the Lunch On Me KC crowd, which if there are any organizations out there -- once things get back up and running -- Lunch On Me KC is a great program where groups can sponsor lunch in Thelma’s and bring in their team to volunteer together in the cafe. You also get a chance to learn a lot more about the economic disinvestment along Troost and how that has impacted the area.
Fr. Justin: And you haven’t spent a lot of time down here on Troost before that, that I'm aware of. So one of the things that I'm interested in talking about on The Social Leader show is what you've learned and how it's affected your leadership. So what have you learned? What have you seen? What have you heard since you've been volunteering at Thelma’s Kitchen on Troost with Reconciliation Services?
Steve: You know, I think a lot of it's really just about humanizing the statistics. Because, I like to think that I'm socially aware and cognizant of a lot of issues that are going on. But when you really see the story of the individuals and learn their stories, that puts a completely different spin on the statistics, you know. We can throw the statistics about, you know, inequality and diversity and equity issues and all kinds of things. But when you see it on a day to day basis, and you really understand who these people are and and really understand the value that they bring and their capabilities. When you see that firsthand, that's a very different understanding. And so to me, just seeing the amazing work that so many volunteers and so many of your staff are doing on a daily basis, and just getting to know some of these folks. It's been a tremendous gift for me just to get to know them, and I've really enjoyed that opportunity.
Fr. Justin: I appreciate you sharing that. For Reconciliation Services, which is the organization that runs Thelma’s Kitchen at 31st and Troost, the world is really, really different now than it was just a month ago. On average during lunch at Thelma’s Kitchen, we would probably serve about 150 meals a day. And now we're well over 300 meals a day. But it's very, very different because instead of volunteering for a meal or taking donations in a donate-what-you-can cafe, now we've got tables at the front and we're just giving away food, but we're trying very hard to keep that Thelma’s Kitchen quality and so it's all fresh cooked every day. We have volunteer chefs as well as our full time chef, Artis, working in Thelma’s Kitchen every day. We're cooking for the community. And that's an interesting thing, because we're never sure each day how many people will come. Sometimes it's 220. Sometimes it's 350. And because we're giving away the food, one of the things that's really different is a very different crowd coming down. Normally, you've got a mix of everybody, from working poor and low income, or even homeless, and CEOs and people working in the community. The whole idea is really to bring people together in a unique way. But now it's not only the homeless that I'm seeing, but I'm actually seeing people who are just now getting laid off. There was a woman I talked to who was a maintenance tech with one of the big law firms in town and she ended up getting let go. There was another person I saw who was a painter and he's out of work. Things are really shifting. While I think there is hope and promise that we might emerge out of this at some point in time in the near future, it's going to be tough for a really long time.
You know, Steve, one of the things I want to transition to talking about is this idea of leadership and social leadership, because your experiences at Thelma’s Kitchen, as well as other places where you volunteered and been involved with have really shaped the kind of perspective that you bring to your leadership, that kind of emotional intelligence maturation that we're all seeking in our leadership. I know that you had a story early on in your life where you really had a paradigm shift in your understanding of leadership and empathy. I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing kind of what formed your leadership now and share some of those stories?
Steve: Yeah, you bet. I've got four kids, two of them have a rare immune system disease which has caused a lot of issues. One specifically, Josh, when he was 12 months old, he started throwing up 10 or 12 times a day, horrible diarrhea 10 or 12 times a day. And from the time he was 12 months to the time he's about 26 months, he was just crashing hard falling off the growth charts, would fall over on the floor and didn't have the energy to get up. We were taking him to multiple hospitals and doctors and trying to figure out what was going on. We literally had a doctor tell us that he didn't know what was happening and he was gonna die and we needed to figure it out. And so it was a very, very stressful time for us. At 26 months, we finally got him diagnosed with a disease called eosinophilic gastrointestinal disease, where essentially his body rejected all food as if it was an allergen. And that's an oversimplification, but basically he was allergic to all food. And so fast forward, shortly after he turned three, we got him on his first feeding tube, which was a nasogastric tube, just right up the nose. And that was a process. We went into the hospital, stayed overnight, not overly complicated, but it's already been a long medical odyssey for us and we were pretty exhausted. My wife and I get him home and we are now at the point where literally, he cannot eat any food. It's only ice. And so when he says he wants to eat, ice is what we would give to him. So we're at home that night, my wife and I are emotionally spent. It's been a long couple of days, a long couple of years. And Josh is on the couch. And he's kind of moping because he wants to eat something and we're telling him he can't. And so as my wife and I are preparing dinner, Josh is sitting on the couch and unbeknownst to us, our two older kids, Hope and Brendan, who at the time were 10 and 8, went over to the refrigerator and got their own cups of ice, and then went and sat down next to their brother, and just ate ice with him. My wife and I turned around, and we saw this and we lost it. I'm talking snot bubbles, bawling, just absolutely losing control. And it was in that moment that two very interesting things happened: The first thing is that it was a very strong point that our lives had now changed and that we were going to have to redefine what normal was. We were going to have to find that new normal and we didn't know what it was. We didn't know what it was going to look like. We didn't know how hard it was going to be. We didn't know if he was gonna live. We had a lot of uncertainty around that. But at the same time, the second point was that his brother and sister found in themselves an opportunity to provide incredible compassion in a moment of tremendous vulnerability and tremendous weakness for Josh and for certainly for his parents as well. It was a beautiful encapsulation of the pain and the challenge that goes along with all of this and at the same time, the beauty that can be a part of the uncertainty and the fear and the chaos. That moment has really shaped me in a lot of ways over the years, because every time something would happen, that would be difficult, that would be challenging in some way, I would routinely look back on that and recognize that, you know what, we're going to get through it. We don't know how, we don't know when, and we don't know why. But we're going to get through all of this, and there's going to be some beauty along the way. When you now fast forward, I'm extremely excited to say that Josh actually just got his feeding tube removed last month, and so he had that tube for 11 years. And it was a pretty profound experience. I won't get into details there, but that's an amazing thing that we are still so excited about.
But as we sit here today, as we look at COVID, and everything that that's doing, it's creating enormous uncertainty and fear and concern about what is the future going to look like? And none of us have the answer. We don't know. And we, unfortunately, have to sit in the “I don’t know” moment for a little while longer. And that's very, very challenging. But at the same time, it does create the opportunity for us to seek and seek out those compassionate beautiful things that are all around us. Which, you know, in a simple way, it's our family. It's the people that we're all locked up with that, you know, sometimes gets a little frustrating and sometimes a little bit angry. And there's a lot of other emotions attached to it. But the reality is, these are the people that we are closest to and that we have the opportunity to connect with in deeper and more meaningful ways. And so on a personal level, that is a really significant lesson out of all of this. And then on a professional level for me, that's why we started SEJ Services because we saw there is real uncertainty. There are absolutely a lot of bad actors out there who are doing some things that they shouldn't be doing, price gouging, all that sort of thing. And it is hurting our society. Because we are making it harder, or more difficult, or in some ways, making it impossible for people to get the equipment that they so desperately need. And so we wanted to be a part of that, not so we can make a ton of money, but so we could use that as a way to create opportunity and most importantly, to give back to this community that is not getting the opportunities that they normally would. We're in the midst of a complicated time. and it's scary and it's challenging, but there's a lot of beauty in it if we're willing to look for it.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, you’ve unpacked so much in that one story, I want to dive in just a little bit, and ask you to talk about how that experience, where you saw your son who was in great pain and really suffering, when you saw your other kids sit down on the couch with him and begin to eat ice chips and not eat dinner because he couldn't eat dinner and he was suffering so much. That kind of mercy and empathy that we see oftentimes in our children, sometimes even before we bring it out, I think drives home the kind of vulnerability and empathetic leadership that we're talking about now in workshops and in the corporate world. I'd love to know how that impacts you now as a leader. A lot of us in leadership are doing the best we can, but then we get to a certain point where we want to grow in our leadership, and we want to get underneath the basics, lean startup, and those kinds of things that entrepreneurs and leaders talk about, we've all read those books. But what's really lacking is that personal transformation very often. When people have gone through that and are able to bring that transformation into their leadership, I call those people social leaders because oftentimes, their worldview is so much bigger in the work that they're doing. They understand the impact that they're able to have. How did that experience of seeing your children there next to your son on the couch change your leadership style in such a way that you've become really a social leader in Kansas City?
Steve: It's a complicated question with a complicated answer, but I'll try to boil it down in a real simple way. I think there's two primary pieces to that. One of them is getting control of your emotional state and recognizing that your emotions can take you down a really negative path and can also spin up and have a negative impact on the people around you. I think the first part of it is really understanding that. For me, that really manifested in the sense that from the time that Josh was diagnosed, the next three years were brutal. We kept a blog and I've gone back and I've tried to reread it at times and I can't get through it. We had a boatload of challenges, tons of hospital visits, and all kinds of things that were going wrong. And it was really, really hard. That had me in a place where emotionally I was so spun up in my emotions all the time, it was very difficult to function in the real world. And unfortunately, you have to. We all have challenges that we're dealing with and we have to be able to actually just function and do what we need to do. For me, after three years of really just being in a difficult place emotionally, I had to make a decision that I was going to stop living in my emotions all the time. Certainly acknowledge them, be aware of them, but I can't let those rule me as I'm moving forward. I think we're all getting caught up in a lot of negative emotions right now about a lot of stuff and those can have a cascading effect that can be really, really negative on us. So I think that's kind of the first part of it, is recognizing your emotional state, being able to identify when you're in a negative emotional state, trying to pull yourself out of it, and recognize that maybe that's not where I need to be. I think that's a part of it.
The other thing that, for me, was a really critical thing, which any of my friends have heard me say a million times, not just with the health situations with the kids, I also lost a business in the great recession, we had a lot of other really significant challenges that we went through over the course of many, many, many, many years. And, if you asked me today, what I got out of all of that, at the end of the day, is that I have a perverse appreciation for pain and suffering. What I mean by that is, pain and suffering is a part of life. Even at this point, I don't even look at it as something that we should be running away from or trying to avoid. We need to really learn to lean into the pain and suffering. I will tell you that I am, I think, a better person when I am suffering, because my priorities get straight. I get much better about figuring out how things are. When things are going really well for me, I tend to think it's because I'm brilliant and amazing and that's not always the best space to be in. When it comes to relationships and friendships, I can go to bad places when I'm convinced that it's because I'm so smart and capable. So for me, pain and suffering plays a really, really important role. It is a part of all of our lives, like right now we are having a collective experience of pain and suffering, but I think it's really important for us to recognize. This is a part of the human condition right now, this social isolation. It’s something that we gotta deal with, but we're all experiencing this together. So this is a form of pain and it is a form of suffering. And for some people, this is really, really brutal. For some of us, it's not fun, it's not ideal, but we're going to be okay, and everything in between. But this pain and suffering, this is the good stuff. When things are great, that's awesome, but at the end of the day, pain and suffering is coming into all of our lives in different ways. And my pain is different from your pain from anyone else, we all have our own different pain. And it's not about his is worse or hers is easier. It's not about anything like that. Pain and suffering, though, is a real and important part of life. And I think that the more we can lean into that creates vulnerability. If you're going to lead people and you're not vulnerable, you're going to have a very difficult time leading them effectively. If you cannot connect to people where they are at, like, really where they're at, not just “oh, well you were late today, come on, do better,” if you're only connecting on those very surface levels, that's not real human connection. And at the end of the day, like I said, we're having a very human experience right now, a collective human experience. We are all able now to hopefully provide a little bit of vulnerability into “hey, this is who I really am and these are the struggles that I'm having, and now let me help you,” let us all help each other. There's a ton of stories. I know people love to talk about the negative stuff. There are so many cool things where people are dropping their guard and they're opening up their hearts and they're connecting with people that they otherwise wouldn't have. It's happening everywhere, all over the place. I think there's gonna be some amazing positives out of this whole experience. One very big picture thing, I'm actually kind of excited where things are going to go environmentally. We're seeing amazing impacts globally where communities that were just completely pollution-filled are now clean. We are actually seeing the environmental impact that we are having in our areas in our cities and in our countries and that is a powerful tool that gives us an opportunity to really make meaningful changes and recognize the impact that we have. That doesn't happen without this pain and suffering. A lot of families are broken and sometimes it's really, really hard and there's no easy way out of that sometimes, but this is giving us an opportunity to maybe heal and vulnerability is a great place to start. So I think it is pain and suffering, it's about understanding our emotions, but it's also about diving in and really leaning into the pain and suffering that we're dealing with.
Fr. Justin: Yeah, I think you've brought up something really important in terms of developing and maturing as social leaders and as leaders. Whether you're in a nonprofit context, you're an entrepreneur, or you're in the corporate world, even if you're a hiring manager, each of us has an opportunity to allow that vulnerability into our work. When we do that, people see us in a way where we really change. Instead of just being a leader who's managing a process, we become somebody who really is interfacing with the people that we live and work with every day in a genuine way. I love what you brought up about suffering. There's a saying that I love, that joy comes into the world actually only through suffering. I think this human experience, this global experience that we're going through with COVID-19 has in it a hidden gift. That is that since we're all sharing a common suffering to one degree or another, we can all point back like when we can say “do you remember 9-11?,” “do you remember the assassination of MLK?,” each generation has had something like that. But it's been a long time since the world has been through something like this. As minor as this may be as compared to a world war, it is something that intimates that kind of experience and in a world that is so divided, where our leadership is so scattered and fragmented, and our inner life is so underdeveloped, this quarantining of our person, of our family, of our companies, has a gift within it that can make us better leaders. When we come to cultivate that inner life within us, we take time for silence, and we make room for suffering and the experience or viewing authentically of the suffering of others. It's only through that that we really can make progress. I think that this kind of experience is going to create better retention in companies and nonprofits. It's going to separate the wheat from the chaff in many ways. I know from hiring a number of people that millennials in particular, but really all of us, are looking for companies that are authentic, not just giving charity, not just having diversity, equity, inclusion seminars and checking check-boxes. They're looking for those companies where this kind of vulnerability and emotional intelligence and the co-suffering love kind of understanding is innate within the culture. Those people, who I call social leaders, are people who live that, breed that, and are advocating for that in their companies, in their families, and in this world.
Steve, I want to just give you a chance before we wrap up here to let you share anything else that you'd like to. Again, I really appreciate you coming on as the co-founder of SEJ Services, as a volunteer with Thelma’s Kitchen every single week. and as somebody who has been a dear friend to me. Are there any final thoughts that you'd like to leave us with, particularly with regard to becoming a social leader
Steve: I think that one of the things that oftentimes we get hung up on is “but I'm supposed to do this,” or “I'm supposed to do that,” or “well, my job requires this or that” and all of that kind of thing. I think to be a social leader, it's not necessarily going out and launching a new company that's going to have a social venture component to it or even the really big things. It's the little stuff that we can do on a day-to-day basis that makes us a social leader. It's interacting in our community, which is something that used to happen at a higher level than it does these days in some senses. It's going to the grocery store and picking up some food for your neighbor, you're being a social leader. It's these little tiny things that we can do that impact those that we are not directly responsible for or responsible to that really creates a very powerful society and one that is a community that we all want to be a part of. I think we all kind of lose sight of it because we all have our phones in front of our face all the time and we're living this online life which is only sort of a little bit real at times, but a lot of aspects of that are not real. It also means that we are losing track of and losing sight of the people that are all around us. Each one of us. We live where we live, and we work where we work. We have communities of people all around us, all of whom have times when they're going through difficulties. They're all suffering at times, they all hurt sometimes, and if we can just do a little bit of a better job of just connecting with them in their pain, and just saying, “Hey, I'm really sorry, that sucks, what you're going through is not a lot of fun, but I'm here for you.” Just start connecting with people in those little ways and that is being a social leader. We need to take this as an opportunity to just kind of take a breath, kind of the great exhale, and now come up with: Who do we want to be? How do we want to impact the people around us? I know for me, I've actually connected with our neighbors a lot more than I have in the last five years. That's not good on my part that it took this to make that happen, but I've actually had some conversations with some people lately, which is just different. So just recognize wherever we're planted, we all have people around us that we can reach out to that we can impact in a small way. Start by smiling at them, start by using a kind word, and then just let it build. If you've got a bigger vision for how you want to impact your community and especially engage and involve the people that maybe don't have the same kind of opportunities that a lot of us have, great, awesome, go do it! There's tons of resources for it. Father Justin is an amazing social venture guy. Even though he's got that collar around his neck, he is a true entrepreneur. I've always been extremely impressed with everything that he does, but there are ways to get out there for us to go and impact our communities right now.
Fr. Justin: Well, I want to highlight, again, your company SEJ Services. You guys are trying to get personal protective equipment right now into the hands of those who need it the most. You're doing that without price gouging. You're doing that in a way with low low margins and trying to get it here as fast as possible, which is a part of your leadership, but then going even above and beyond that. As a for profit company, you're doing more than charity, you're actually saying with every order that's made, you're going to give away some to Reconciliation Services and to low income communities. I’m really grateful to have you on today and thank you for being the first on the first episode of The Social Leader. There’s more to come for everybody. Thank you so much for being with us and I hope to see you again down here at Thelma’s Kitchen really soon.
The Social Leader Podcast is brought to you by Reconciliation Services. You can find out more about Reconciliation Services at rs3101.org. You can also check out our first social venture, Thelma’s Kitchen, which is right now giving away hundreds and hundreds of meals every day to people who need it the most. Thanks for joining us.
